🛷The Tiger King of dog sledding 🏫 Degrassi 🧟♀️ apocalypse friendships👩🏼🤝👨🏾 Blue's Clues 🐾 Kiss From a Rose🌹a legendary voice, remembered 🎙️
🍭 👂 TRUST ME! 🌈 🤸♀️
Bonjour.
Today is Monday, March 20. There are 52 days until my next Disney cruise. In case this email is too long, here’s Amy Westervelt’s new nutzo series about oil colonialism, The Cooperheads have spoken, “We’re just one dead body away from Tiger King” here.
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xoxo lp
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👋q & a & q & a & q & a👋
Jesse Thorn
Jesse Thorn, who Fast company called “the most important person in entertainment you’ve never heard of.” is the founder of Maximum Fun.
Today the pioneering, audience-supported podcast network announced today that it is changing its corporate structure to a worker-owned Cooperative. The transition to a co-op structure will ensure the sustainability, longevity, and success of the company into the future. Under the new cooperative structure, Thorn will transfer ownership of the company (officially an S-Corp founded in 2011) to its two dozen employees, who will assume decision-making responsibilities, elect a Board of Directors, and enjoy the benefits of being worker-owners. Thorn will remain with the company as a worker-owner, and will continue to partner with MaxFun to host and produce podcasts.
The new cooperative will focus on sustainability, fair compensation, and responsible growth, and it looks to attract new and diverse talent as it continues to expand.
How would you describe the Max Fun vibe in 3 words?
How about…smart, funny, kind?
How did you share the news with your creators and what have their response been?
Our managing director Bikram and I had meetings with each show over the last six weeks or so. I think everyone was worried because we couldn’t really tell them what the meeting was about in advance, so they were basically getting called in to the principal’s office. We did a fair amount of explaining what coops are and how they work, sharing what we’ve learned over the last eighteen months or so, as you’d expect. And then shared a little bit of the why. By and large the talent was thrilled. We were on Zoom, but I think I saw two hosts cry a little. I mean, they’re with us because they’re with us.
How will this change impact your creators?
Actually very little, in an immediate practical way. The day-to-day management structure of the company is the same, the deals are the same, the people are the same. But it will certainly be… if not a vibe shift, a vibe reinforcement. I see it as reflecting within our business structure the values we’ve tried to reflect in our relationship with shows. And frankly, I hope this will encourage listeners to become members, which will be great for creators and for the business.
How will this change impact listeners?
Again: very little, on a practical, day-to-day basis. But I know it means a lot to our listeners that our creators own their shows, and now they’ll know that the person who replies to their email or sends out their baseball cap or troubleshoots the RSS feeds also owns their work.
How will this change impact your own role with Maximum Fun?
I’m not going anywhere. I’ll be an employee-owner myself, with the primary duty of relationships to talent and creative consultation, but also responsibility for wearing the character costume when we do promotional tours of mall food courts. I’ll be on the board, as a non-voting member, making sure everyone has access to what expertise I’ve gathered over the years. And my own shows - Bullseye, Jordan Jesse Go and Judge John Hodgman - will all be creator-owned shows in the MaxFun network, and will be staffed with MaxFun employees. So I guess the main change is that I can still talk as much as I want but now nobody technically *has* to listen to me.
Was the move to a worker-owned cooperative due to changes in the podcast industry, or is this something that would have happened regardless?
I think we have long anticipated what has happened in the podcast industry recently. We’ve been doing this for coming up on twenty years, now. We’ve seen waves of speculative money. I put my show out via Odoo. I listened to podcasts on a Zune. The latest wave of money has certainly been the biggest, but the reality is that while a lot of companies got out ahead of their skis, trying to grab market share without consideration for how much money they burned through doing so, the actual medium is really healthy. It’s not like people stopped listening to podcasts. That audience is still vibrant and growing. We always built this company to be profitable and productive when the VC money dried up.
All that ephemeral VC money flowing back out of podcasting does, however, highlight how we are different. We built this outfit on values, on meaning so much to our audience that they actually volunteer to give us money, even though we give them the work for free. And that is a steady and strong foundation that’s only buttressed by this move to worker ownership.
The new cooperative will focus on sustainability, fair compensation, and responsible growth. How will you hold the new partnership up to this?
Ultimately, it’ll be up to our workers, our partners and our audience. I think we’re all aligned on this, we’re all shooting for this. None of us is perfect, and the world isn’t perfect, either, but we’re gonna bust our butts.
Those words you used to describe Max Fun at the top…will you be striving to stick to that tone?
Nah, that’s out the window. We’re going all Chomsky, all the time. We’re already working on a recap podcast of our new signature podcast, the Chomskycast.
What kind of talent will you be seeking in the future?
Besides Noam Chomsky? We’re always looking for smart, funny people who stand out at a party and seem like they’d be a good friend.
Will Max Fun be open to partnering with shows outside of network for promo swaps and other growth opportunities?
I wouldn’t say no. We’ve done it some in the past and will probably do it some in the future. We’re already planning to send Chomsky to do Rogan and then Rogan’s gonna come do Chomsky. (Please note: we are not currently working with Noam Chomsky. But if his agent is reading this: yeah, we’d take a meeting.)
What Max Fun show are you most proud of?
I mean, I give a little advice here and there when our creators ask, but the shows really are theirs. I can only take credit for my shows, and even then only partial credit.
This will sound corny, because it is corny, but I am most proud that these great shows want to work with us. I mean yeesh, typing that out, I can see how truly corny it is, but it also is actually true. When I listen to Stop Podcasting Yourself, which was the first show in our network that wasn’t being made by me in my apartment, I find myself thinking, “these two geniuses work with us? Still?” That’s when I’m proud.
What are you most proud of in general?
I made it onto the “Notable Alumni” list on my high school’s Wikipedia page. And I guess my children and marriage and the art I’ve created. But mostly the Wikipedia thing.
What are you highest hopes for the evolution of Maximum Fun?
I’m not a big high hopes guy. I never have goals. It’s one foot in front of the other with me. I mostly want this to stay a long term project. I want us to stick with it.
🚨If u only have time for 1 thing🚨
The first season of NRP’s “rhyme and punishment” podcast Louder Than a Riot was about what happens when hip-hop stars come into contact with the criminal justice system. This time, it’s looking inward at the people marginalized and punished within the rap game. The first episode includes original reporting from the trial that found Tory Lanez guilty of assaulting Megan Thee Stallion and includes moving raw footage of hosts Sidney Madden and Rodney Carmichae as they digest the misogynoiristic trial. One minute we think we’re having a renaissance for women in rap, but Megan’s trial was a reality check about the way we treat Black women. Holding these two truths— that the criminal justice system is unjust to Black men AND ALSO that Tory Lanez shot Megan—can be hard to do but Black women have to do it all the time. This is a great way to bring us into the new season, and coming up Sidney and Rodney will be talking to Trina, Latto, DreamDoll, Saucy Santana, iLoveMakonnen, Rico Nasty, journalist Kim Osorio, activist Tarana Burke and more to show how the double-standard became the standard in rap.
oh hey
✨ 12 Interview Podcasts Way Better Than Joe Rogan via Lifehacker
✨ Thank you to Fatima Zaidi, Quincy de Vries, and Quill for being named in this list of Top Women Making *Audio* Waves in the Podcast Industry.
✨How (and why) to make an unforgettable podcast trailer via Podcast Marketing Magic.
✨Feed the Queue, the podcast discovery podcast I co-host with Adela Mizrachi of Podcast Brunch Club, featured an episode of You Didn’t See Nothin. Listen here.
✨New podcast newsletter from Shreya Sharma! First issue is here.
💁♀️ Kate’s Corner, week 3 🎧
Last week I had my friend Kate “the Podcast Hater” Later listen to Relationships Are Hard. This Unusual Parenting Theory Could Help from The Ezra Klein Show. I also mentioned FOGO, and because Kate is an over-achiever, she listened to both and gave copious notes:
“I started listening to FOGO this week. I really like Ivy and I think we would be friends in real life so I extra wanted to like her podcast. I think I would really enjoy hearing her say all these things if we were out at a bar having a drink, but something about the podcast still annoyed me. I made it about 10 minutes in. Sorry to Ivy… it’s me not you. I might like it if I listened to it sped up. I don’t know how to do that.
Then I tried the Ezra Klein Show you recommended on parenting. This is a topic I’m specifically interested in, so I was very optimistic. I was enjoying it very much as he explained the theory but then I got to the interview part and it got annoying again. He asked bad questions, and I didn’t like the lady… I made it about 20 minutes into this one
It’s worth noting that I do like Miss Pam’s podcast because there is a clear action item.”
OUCH. Okay. We’re not making any progress. I’m starting to think that Kate isn’t afraid to be alone with her own thoughts or something?! (And as someone commented in last week’s issue, why am I trying to force this?) I’m getting some great recs from YOU all, keep ‘em coming. I’m tracking them all. Meggan Ellingboe gave two great ideas that are SO Chicago. This week, Kate, try You Didn’t See Nothin (this is one of my favorite podcasts in a long time, I cannot picture you saying “why am I listening to this?” when you hear it) and Nerdette (I am less confident about this, pick your own episode.) So far the ranking goes, from favorite to least-favorite: Miss Pam, FOGO, Ezra, The Longest Shortest Time.
-sponsored-
Join journalist Miriam Frankel as she delves into some of the great mysteries still puzzling the world's top scientists, in this new podcast from The Conversation and FQXI. Enjoy a mind-blowing journey through everything from curled-up dimensions to consciousness and parallel universes, guided by some of the biggest names in Physics. In Episode 1 we ask - is Time an illusion? Listen here.
💎BTW💎
🎙️Amy Westervelt of Damages and Drilled is one of the best climate journalists we have, and has a long history reporting on fossil fuels. For a new project called Light Sweet Crude she’s taking us to Guyana, home to one of the world’s largest oil reserves that’s currently the center of an enormous drilling project by ExxonMobile. Oil executives and Guyanese officials say oil equals development and prosperity, and on paper Guyana is the fastest-growing economy in the world. But average citizens aren’t benefiting from the boom. Few people are brave enough to ask why. One of them is Amy, and the other is a woman named Kiana Wilburg who has been reporting the shit out this stuff for five years, since Exxon started drilling. (We meet her in episode one.) I sometimes wonder if Amy gets tired of being the only one to get to the bottom of this stuff. I love how she has a sort of partner in crime in Kiana. This is an explosive story about what oil colonialism looks like in the 21st century, and why everyone should care. Amy will make you care. Listen here.
🎙️Despite what we’ve probably been told, the week following the assassination of Martin Luther king Jr. in 1968 was one of the most fiery, disruptive, and contentious weeks in American history. For many, King was the last chance for a race reckoning without blood. For many his death was a religious event that (happened around Easter and) meant war. The retaliation that followed diverted a social revolution and changed America forever. Holy Week starts as a text-book rewrite of the story you thought you knew but unfolds to reveal the stories of people left in the wake of King’s Holy Week, the tiny ways it broke them and their families from the inside out. This is from The Atlantic and hosted by Vann R. Newkirk II, the same people and host who brought us Floodlines. When Jesus was assassinated, it sparked one of the largest and most powerful religions in the world. MLK’s assassination was a tital wave that impacted the entire trajectory of modern America that we’re still learning about. We’re still in it. And in Holy Week, we get a granular look at how the wave threw not only our country into a whirlwind, but families and individuals, too. The writing for Holy Week is tight and could read as a novel. The music is a character itself, perfectly rising and waining to accentuate the highs and lows of the story. Listen here.
🎙️Lizzy Cooperman has been sacrificing herself each week for an entire year for our entertainment and documenting it on her podcast In Your Hands, the podcast where she lets listeners decide what nutty things she should do next with her life. (Get a job as the This Is Us tour guide in LA? Get a piercing? Burn her journals? Ask an ex to install some IKEA shelves? Become an Uber driver who listens to the The Clan of the Cave Bear audiobook on her drives?) It’s been a wild ride. (I personally have enjoyed the challenges that were tiny and less life-altering just as much if not more than the earth-shattering ones—the beauty is Lizzy’s poetic voice, sense of humor and excellent friend group who come on as guests.) But like all good things, this show must come to an end. Or must it? It’s so good that it’s unsustainable for Lizzy to make and now she is putting the future of it in our hands. This week we vote: end the show, or amend it? And this episode is a collection of voicemails from Cooperheads telling her what they think she should do. It’s kind of like a bunch of love letters to the show, though some say she should end it. Some people have advice. My voicemail is at the end, I’m almost in tears. I selfishly voted that she should amend the show. But we’ll see what the Cooperheads say. Lizzy has put a lot of stuff in our hands (I often wonder…have we steered her wrong?) but this one is the heaviest. I wrote down one thing in my notes and one thing only: “a feta crumble of deodorant.” A five-word poem within the episode, a reminder of the funny and vivid writing that I will miss so much if this show goes away. Listen here.
🎙️If a true-crime podcasts means that it’s about a real crime, then Party Crews: The Untold Story is technically true-crime. But it’s so much more. Yes it’s the story of the unsolved murder of Emmery Muño, who was murdered in 2006. But host Janice Llamoca is telling us about an entire subculture, the Party Crews in South Central LA (“a beautiful shithole with beautiful people”) of the early 2000s, when teens would escape from their homes in the middle of the night to meet, dance, and party in all sorts of legal and illegal ways in warehouses. Emmery was a Crew member, but we have no reason to believe that’s why she died. The media wants us to think otherwise. Party Crews is about Emmery—her life and death and how it all got minimalized to a party gone wrong and the beginning of social media (Techno4.us,) but the thing it does most beautifully is capture the spirit of wild and fearless adolescence and that energy we had as teens when we never thought we could die, and the sparks that fly when teens find the freedom to teenage together in the middle of the night like there’s no tomorrow. This is a teenage love story, a romance. And also murder. Listen here.
🎙️In 2020, a CityLab Study named Cleveland the least livable city for Black Women. It was the inspiration for Living For We, a podcast that also looks at another “Project Noir” survey that captures the feedback of over 450 Black women within the Cleveland area providing accounts of frustration, isolation, marginalization, and discrimination, within the workplace, healthcare facilities, and the education sector. Host Marlene Harris-Taylor is talking to Black women in Cleveland—Samaria Rice, mother of Tamir Rice, and women in the education, health, and business sectors—to find out if Cleveland is really as bad as they say. I am from Cleveland and this study is not surprising, but it is really something to bring it to live with the voices of the people it’s talking about. Listen here.
🎙️You know I love Outside/In, you know I love the Iditarod, so imagine the victory dance I did when I learned of Outside/In’s three-part miniseries The Underdogs, a true-crime inspired story about some big drama happening behind-the-scenes of the competitive dog-sledding community, which is tiny but nuts. Tagline: “We’re just one dead body away from Tiger King.” Nate Hegyi got a tip about a family in Alaska’s world of competitive sled dog racing that has burned bridges, destroyed friendships, and left a trail of debt totaling tens of thousands of dollars. It’s got some international intrigue, some colorful characters, and an inside look at a pretty unusual subculture and sport. Listen here.
🎙️I was way too old for Blue’s Clues when it first aired but loved it anyway, and I still do. Just hearing the theme song makes me nostalgic for middle school. (I told you: wayyy too old.) In 1996, Blue’s Clues captured the hearts of so many people who felt abandoned when the original host Steve Burns left for college in 2002. He had become a friend and Blue’s Clues had become more than a show. It was magic. 25 years later Steve Burns released a video with a message to his fans. He hasn’t forgotten us! He missed us, too! Blue’s Clues has been rebooted with a new host, Josh Dela Cruz, and Phoebe Jude interviewed both him and Steve for an interview on This Is Love that bottles up all our tenderness for Steve, our sadness when he left, and the beauty of Blue’s Clues method of simply talking directly to kids and making them feel important and smart. Also the hope that this show can continue with Josh, who seems to be Steve incarnate. Listen here.
🎙️Hello, CRAZY CAT WOMAN here, and IMHO cat podcasts tend to be pretty bad. I love cats but don’t need to hear their owners talk about them. I want cat CONTENT that’s fattier than my cat Monty’s adorable pooch. Give me something to work with, cat podcasts! Amanda B. had me at “CAT-THEMED HISTORY AND CULTURE PODCAST,” the sub-title of her new show 6 Degrees of Cats, a well-written and researched cat show that invites esteemed experts (doctors, animal behaviorists, museum curators, historians, and trap-neuter-return activist Sterling “TrapKing” Davis of TrapKing…) all to remind us that cats have been the center of our conversations, thoughts and lives since the beginning of time. Amanda B. is a Korean American transracial adoptee based in Brooklyn who was selected into a cohort of 10 out of 18,000 applicants to go through Spotify's first Sound Up podcast accelerator for women and non-binary podcasters of color in 2018. She’s spunky and and playful with audio. Very excited about the show’s companion newsletter The Captain's Log by Captain Kitty and very jealous that she gets to sign her emails like this: _^..^_ Listen here.
🎙️Does Kevin McCallister Grow Up to Become Jigsaw from the Saw Movies? Discuss. (Fan Theory Queries.) Listen here.
🎙️Evo Terra has launched The End Last Week, This Week, and Next Week (a title so confusing that I actually think I’ll remember it.) It’s the companion podcast to The End newsletter, and focuses on fiction shows that reached a series finale or the season conclusion last week, what recommendations Evo has for this week, and what fiction podcasts are coming back with new seasons next week. Listen here.
🎙️The Ringer Dish is a great celebrity culture podcast with an interesting model—it often drops podcasts on the existing feed instead of starting a new one, so the show is like a mix bag of fun stuff that all feels part of the same family. A new series launched on Wednesday, “What About Your Friends,” that’s dedicated to the many lives of friendship and how it’s portrayed in television, movies, music, internet culture, gossip, and beyond. On the first installment, Erika Ramirez explores the ins and outs of friendship set during an apocalypse or doomsday scenario with her best friend and cohost, Steven Othello, and builds an ideal doomsday friend with The Ringer’s Joanna Robinson. They nerd out about two things I’m so into right now: The Last of Us and Yellowjackets. Listen here.
🎙️Back Issue had an episode about Degrassi that I thought would just be a fun throwback episode for me to bask in nostalgia (and memories of teenagers getting shot, pregnant, and having their periods in very white pants.) But it ended up being kind of mind-blowing, a reminder of how that show did really go there as advertised, but also, how little things have changed. The show actually doesn’t seem that outdated. In fact Degrassi is a reminder that we seem to be going backwards. It’s harder for kids to get abortions these days, we are getting more restricted in being able to talk to them about things like school shootings. Guest Andrea Lewis (Hazel) is there to remind us about how the show does not hold up (her character’s only main storyline was making fun of muslims and denying her own racial identity.) So yes, it was fun to go back to the days of Drake pre-Drake, but also a fascinating unpacking of a show that prepared us for the world years ago, and to this day feels surprisingly relevant. Listen here.
🎙️Switched on Pop’s Nate Sloan interviewed Seal about (quoting Seal here) the “decent waltz that shouldn’t really work” but does, his 1994 hit song Kiss From a Rose. Is it grey or grave? What does it mean? Why “Ba-ya-yas” and “ba-da-da-da-da-das?” It’s the openness that made it resonate with people. So the answer to the question “why does this song still make us sway and cry, our hearts swell?” is “nobody knows.” But it’s something to think about, especially when you’ve got Seal on the horn. Listen here.
🎙️My favorite section of The New York Times comes once a year, The Lives They Lived, which is a collection of beautifully written obituaries honoring people notable enough to have a compelling obit in The Times, but not so famous that their deaths hit the front page. I look forward to it every year, and am sad when I’ve finished reading it. But I kind of am getting it each week on Mobituaries, where Mo Rocca (CBS Sunday Morning correspondent) celebrates obituaries with a weekly ode to his favorite dearly departed people and things, from the 'Latin Lover' who redefined Hollywood masculinity in the 1920s to Wishbone. Mo is funny clever and curious and tackles topics in a way that makes you feel like you’re watching…well, an adult version of Wishbone, sort of. (Writing for Wishbone was Mo’s first job in TV.) It’s serious stuff but also silly and a total blast. The whole show feels like a cartoon, so it’s fitting that the episode about June Foray is so absolutely perfect. (June voiced as Rocky the Flying Squirrel, Natasha Fatale, Lucifer from Disney's Cinderella, Cindy Lou Who, Grammi Gummi from Disney's Adventures of the Gummi Bears and more. She may have slipped through the cracks of our history books, but Mo was able to stop the fall by creating this tribute to her (that I wish she could have heard…except not…there is something in the end that nobody would want her to hear…OH WHAT A TEASE I AM!) and this obituary rollercoaster for us. That’s kind of what a mobit is. An obituary rollercoaster. Listen here.
🎙️On Who? Weekly, entertaining as always, Bobby and Lindsey talk about podcast PR and the backlash of celebrities going on podcasts, focusing on two recent interviews that have gone viral: Rachel Bilson revealing on her podcast Broad Ideas that she didn’t orgasm until 38, and Diplo telling High Low that he’d probably received blow jobs from men but that it wasn’t gay. How much should celebs be giving away on podcasts? It’s the question we are asking all celebs on podcast: whyYYyy?? h/t Arielle Nissenblatt. Listen here.
🎙️The Sporkful perfectly summarized the new thinking around fine dining (that it is total bullshit) by talking to Vivian Howard of Chef & the Farmer. (I worked with her at Little, Brown, she’s a badass of good food philosophy.) Vivian talks about exactly why high-end restaurants are not sustainable, why there are so many of them, and why we can’t blame Noma’s Rene Redzepi for not paying his workers. After hearing the story about an older food editor taking a young vegetarian editor to 11 Madison for the $900 vegetarian tasting menu (she hated it,) I felt this release, this freedom to admit how much I hate this shit too, how I would be embarrassed to spend that much on a meal, and I find solace in finding out I’m not alone. I live in New York City. I’m supposed to be excited about these places and menus. When all I really want to do is to go Mala Project with Arielle over and over and over. Listen here.
🎙️I love you!
📦 From the Archives 📦
[From Dec 5, 2019] You have to have a very special sense of humor to appreciate Patti Harrison and Lorelei Ramirez's A Woman’s Smile, their satirical show that talks about...hmm. How do I describe it? "The gentle and kind nature of a woman's smile." It has me in stitches. Patti and Lorelei play hosts who passive-aggressively hate each other and bring on guests to poke fun of women's issues like social media, poetry (kill me it's too funny) and writing in a diary.