💌Podcast The Newsletter💌

Bonjour.

I was recently interviewing candidates to assist me with Tink, and reached out to NYU students in hopes of finding an energetic intern who wanted explore the exciting world of podcasting with me, someone who knew things that I did not know, who knew what all the cool kids were listening to. I learned a lot (wow did more of them say they love Ben Shapiro and Logan Paul than what I am comfortable with) but one of the most valuable lessons was learning that they watch podcasts on YouTube. Some of them don't even use podcast apps, but they consider themselves "podcast obsessed." (Or this is what they told me when they were trying to convince me to hire them.) Horrifying, right?

But wait. My friend Ma'ayan Plaut pointed me to this piece that Tom Webster wrote that explores the fascinating lives of podcast listeners. Like Tom, and like me, you may not consider watching Logan Paul on YouTube listening to a podcast. But to younger people, or people new to podcasts, they don't care HOW they get the story, they just want the story.

Webster calls this The Show. These YouTube watchers are in it for The Show, they are not concerned with the medium that delivers The Show. Traditionalists say that a podcast can only be delivered as "an enclosure using RSS in an open system." My NYU intern candidates think a podcast is any on-demand content that calls itself a podcast.

Webster doesn't think this is a hill traditionalists should die on and stresses the lines are blurry. "You have never been in control. The audience is in control. They always have been," he says. "If you can access it on a podcast client, it's a podcast. The podcast is a subset of The Show."

And The Show is what we really all care about, right?

Still, I didn't hire any of those people. I respect their hot takes on what a podcast is, but I need to hire someone who has heard of Pocket Casts.

When I worked in publishing, I was a huge book pusher, forcing books upon people and constantly asking strangers what they were reading on the subway. I still do that, but am more of a podcast pusher now. I love both. To me, it's all about The Show. I don't care how people are getting stories, so long as they are getting them. And I never cared what the stories were, either. I'm equally happy to hear that someone is reading Dan Brown than I am to hear that someone is reading Proust. Look at me, I'm on a tangent now!

Quick note about today's interview with June Thomas: I have been a huge fan of June's since I started listening to podcasts, when The Waves was DoubleX Gabfest. I cannot believe I got to interview her! She is smart, funny, and kind, and I love everything she does. I even love how she reads ads!

And now, on with The Show!

xoxo lp
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👋q & a & q & a & q & a👋

Slate's June Thomas

June Thomas is senior managing producer of Slate Podcasts and a host of The Waves. Follow her on Twitter here.

What are the qualities of a good podcaster?
The podcasters I love to listen to are people who are able to sound like they’re having a fun, casual conversation with their buddies (or colleagues) while dropping serious knowledge—the team on the FiveThirtyEight Politics Podcast or Thirst Aid Kit’s Nichole Perkins and Bim Adewunmi are standouts at this. I love podcasters who can express deep insights without sounding pompous—my colleagues on The Waves are great at that. I also love hearing people wonk out. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an NBA game, but I never miss an episode of The Lowe Post, in which ESPN’s Zach Lowe interviews basketball writers and players. I also love The Pen Addict, in which Brad Dowdy and Myke Hurley talk about pens and stationery every week. (They’re currently on Episode 387!) To give you a sense of how much I love quality chat, I’ve never owned an Android device, but for years I had a weekly appointment with All About Android.

When did you start podcasting?
Starting in 2003, when Slate collaborated with NPR on the midday radio show Day to Day, I would occasionally serve as substitute Slate talent wrangler when Andy Bowers, Slate’s representative at NPR West, was on vacation. (This was crazy—I did know the Slatesters, but I knew pretty much nothing about radio, at least as it is practiced in the 21st century—I’d worked in college radio and on feminist radio collectives, but back in the days of magnetic tape!) On one of these occasions, in 2005, Andy got back in time for us to have lunch, and he told me about podcasts. I was hooked. (He’s pretty persuasive.) By day I was Slate’s foreign editor, but by night I became a podcast producer. Every weeknight I would read the Explainer column into a digital recorder, then edit and upload Slate’s Explainer podcast. I did that for longer than I can now believe, and afterward I was involved with several other Slate shows—I subbed on the Culture Gabfest for a few months; I made Afterword, an author interview show; I did a bunch of TV recap podcasts with Seth Stevenson. Then in 2013, I joined The Waves, Slate’s podcast about feminism and gender, which was then known as the DoubleX Gabfest.

If you were going to start another podcast that would be wildly successful no matter what (so don't worry about it succeeding...this is JUST for you...) what would it be?
My journalistic obsession is the challenge millions of Americans face accessing dental treatment. Perfect topic for a podcast, right?

Describe your listeners in 3 words.
Waves listeners are smart, sassy, engaged. (And when they think we’ve strayed from the path of right-on feminism, they let us know.)

How has podcasting changed your life?
Podcasts are my job now—I’m the senior managing producer of the Slate Podcast Network. Being one of the hosts of The Waves is a small part of my workload. I spend most of my time keeping the production trains running on time, offering editorial feedback, and working with hosts and producers.

Give us another podcast recommendation.
Although I haven’t lived there for more than 35 years, I grew up in Britain, and I am still obsessed with British politics. Although I don’t share the Spectator’s politics, I’m a huge fan of Coffee House Shots, the magazine’s daily politics podcast. I love how efficient they are—episodes rarely exceed 12 minutes. Listening makes me feel like a Westminster insider.

💎BTW:💎

Behold my podcast wreath:

Okay, enough chit chat. Let's get down to business.

🎙️The #Bello100 from The Bello Collective is here! These podcast NUTS have the best podcast recommendations, and their list is a true gift. I recommended Mad Chat, The B-Sides, Remarkable Providences, Radio Rental, Finding Fred, The Alarmist, and Mockery Manor. But I am going to be listening to every single episode recommended that I haven't already listened to. These people are the people to trust and I know they all put a ton of blood, sweat, and tears into making this list.

🎙️'Tis the season for my Podcast Advent Calendar—I'm sharing a holiday-ish podcast episode every day leading up to JC's birthday. So far I've shared "Jesus' Lost Years with Ptolemy Slocum" on Lizard People, "Light" on The Kabitz, The Complete Christmas, "Jingle Bells Mubarak" on See Something Say Something, "Kentucky Fried Christmas" on Brought To You By... and "The Dark Side of Santa Claus" on The Last Podcast of the Left. Follow me on Twitter for daily updates, the full calendar is here.

🎙️A Woman's Smile is back, and goddam it, I couldn't be more thrilled. You have to have a very special sense of humor to appreciate Patti Harrison and Lorelei Ramirez's satire show that talks about...hmm. How do I describe it? "the gentle and kind nature of a woman's smile." It has me in stitches. Patti and Lorelei play hosts who passive-aggressively hate each other and bring on guests to poke fun of women's issues like social media, poetry (kill me it's too funny) and writing in a diary.

🎙️Gaslight is a 10-episode mystery series made up of 10-15 minute episodes, starring Taran Killam, Chloë Grace Moretz, and Kelsey Asbille. Danny (Grace Moretz) went missing her senior year in high school but returns years later to visit her best friend Rebecca. What starts with a creepy visit on a stormy day turns into a wild story that unfolds as Rebecca tries to figure out where Danny has been. Beautifully produced and with talented voice actors, it's an exciting example of what a fiction podcast can be, breaking the mold of most other fiction shows. It's addictive, Justin and I were both obsessed. Listen to the full story here.

🎙️I listened to The Complete Woman on Earwolf last year, but didn't appreciate it at the time. (It's pretty experimental and I think I used to have a more traditional idea of what I liked to listen to.) Comedian Amanda Lund (Earios) takes us back to the '60s, giving us advice for a good life and marriage. It's now released on the Earios network, via Stitcher Premium. I listened to everything again, and was dying from laughter. The writing is tight and the humor is quick. So excited about its offshoot, The Complete Christmas, which is finally here.

🎙️The Long-Distance Con from The New Yorker Radio Hour is a two-part audio piece that tells the story of Maggie Robinson Katz, who inherited a box of cassette tapes from her stepmom after her dad died. On the audiotapes, she met a father she had never known. Her dad, Terry Robinson, had recorded his phone calls with Jim Stuckey, a West Virginian living in Manila who had bamboozled Terry into a scam that cost Terry almost a million dollars. It's a wacky story but the thing that makes it excellent audio is the personal touch added by Maggie, who is struggling to understand who her father really was. She even goes to Manila to meet Jim Stuckey. Would you have done the same.

🎙️The Realness is a fascinating look into the life of the rapper Prodigy, so if you love Mobb Deep's Shook Ones, this short series is for you. What makes the podcast extra important is its treatment of sickle cell anemia, how it's overlooked in the American health care and justice systems, and how it led to Prodigy's untimely death. The pain he felt while rapping. How it shaped who he was. I read in graphic detail about sickle cell in one of my favorite books, THE SPORT OF KINGS, and I still get nightmares...NIGHTMARES...thinking about it. Oh my god. Like right now. The descriptions of the excruciating pain in that book were...bone-chilling. I'm still talking about it, right now. Oh my god. GAH. Anyway. The Realness shines some light on this overlooked disease and the short life of a rapper we should all know more about. (Although I must confess, I left with more questions than answers, more questions than I had when I started the show.)

🎙️Lunch Therapy is based on the Brillat-Savarin quote from Iron Chef: “Tell me what you eat: I will tell you who you are.” Only here, it’s “tell me what you eat for lunch.” Adam Roberts is not a therapist, but he's a good interviewer. There are so many food podcasts that at times it seems overwhelming, and because I'm not a foodie (or whatever) I need my food podcasts to have a hook that extends beyond how to cook a dish or the history of a certain meal. Lunch Therapy is easy to latch onto. The first episode with Ryan O'Connell talks about eating and gay culture, and what Ryan's obsession with Sweet Green salads says about him.

🎙️I stumbled upon Beach Too Sandy, Water Too Wet, dramatic readings of one-star reviews. The show is organized by city and business (so the Columbia, MD episode is all about dry cleaners in the area.) This show packs more of a punch than you'd think. It tells a story of the city featured, and the people inside. Listening to these episodes reminds me of my biblical studies in college (which I loved) because we're getting primary sources from another place that creatively paint a picture of what that place is like. It's also hilarious. I listened to ice cream parlors in Charleston WV, where I was born, grocery stores in Cincinnati, near where my husband is from, and comic book shops in NYC, where I live now. Also excited about comedy clubs in Harvard, McDonald's in Billings Montana, bookstores in Portland Oregon, DMVs in Phoenix, and fitness centers in Cheyenne Wyoming. So many! Also June Thomas if you are reading you might enjoy dentists in Denver.

🎙️Love Ear Hustle? Of course, we all do. This week on Without Fail, Alex Blumberg interviews Erlonne Woods, the star of Ear Hustle. It's a fascinating story starting with how Erlonne found his way behind bars, to how he did the impossible thing—recording a podcast from prison, to how hard it is to actually make a podcast.

🎙️I will not shut up about how much I love Radio Rental, "bizarre, real-life horror stories told by those who lived them." The current hiatus has put me in a real bummer of a mood, but I was happy to see another episode pop up this week. It goes behind-the-scenes to some of the scariest stories from the show. If it's the first episode you listen to, you'll be convinced to go back and listen to more, I promise. And if you've listened to everything like me, you're in for a treat.

🎙️Two good podcast episodes that explore Black Friday, and make me think about it in a new way: A conversation on The Waves and You're Wrong About's Sarah Marshall on Ana Marie Cox's With Friends Like These. The Waves also announced that they will be doing their "is it sexist?" call-in show. Submit your questions by calling 973-826-0318 or sending an email to thewaves@slate.com. You have until December 15th.

🎙️Kate and I dropped our episode of The Shelf Care Podcast with Liana Finck. You may know Liana from her wonderful Instagram account or her cartoons in The New Yorker. (She has also designed many book covers that you have probably enjoyed!) I fell in love with Liana, she is so thoughtful and sweet, and was so honest about a number of things (like feeling her age, her body, and taking up space.) It's a great conversation.

🎙️Time released a list of the 10 best podcasts of 2019, and many of them are very good. (MOONFACE, You're Wrong About, 1619, Scatted, The Last Days of August.) The list reminded me to revisit Decoder Ring, where Willa Paskin investigates why we get so obsessed with cultural phenomenons like “Baby Shark” and Chuck E. Cheese. The episode The Paper Doll Club explores paper dolls and wonders why they ever went away, and the importance they played in one man's life who grew up closeted in Ohio. The story is unlike anything you've heard anywhere else, it's beautiful.

🎙️I love Clevelanders and was delighted when Hannah Rae Leach reached out to me about her show, Wholehearted, an indie show about the people, places, things, and ideas we believe in, for better or for worse. ("It's utterly...my baby," she said.) On ep 1 Hannah talks about being in love with her best friend all through high school and him coming out the moment they graduated. ("Classic," she said.) Hannah told me; "I hope that Wholehearted encourages people to share their own stories and form connections over the things that make them feel happy, seen, and alive, no matter how trivial those things may be at times."

🎙️Sophia (one of my first clients with Tink!) was on one of my favorite shows, Ethnically Ambiguous. It's a very personal conversation between Sophia, Anna, and Shereen about lots of things, like having immigrant parents. I was in heaven listening to the episode, even though I was there in person when it was being recorded

🎙️Another one of my clients, Mitch Schneider, was on Brainhackers. I adore Mitch, his story is incredible, his book MISFIRE is such a creative take on business books, and on Brainhackers he talks about how to overcome situations that go wrong.

🎙️Underunderstood isn't a new idea (each episode focuses on solving dumb internet mysteries,) but listening to it feels fresh. I think it's because I like hosts Billy, Regina, and Adrianne. Each episode is silly but crafted with care. On "Why does this guy from Philly have 'gas' tattooed on his ankle?" Billy's curiosity is piqued watching an episode of Catfish (it was news to me this show is still on?) and he takes listeners on a journey to talk to the kid who is trying to make "gas" happen and a linguist who explains the eccentricities of the Philadelphian accent.

🎙️Speaking of language...Ezra Klein had an interesting conversation with internet linguist Gretchen McCulloch, author of BECAUSE INTERNET, about the language of the internet. If you love language, listen to this episode and then check out Gretchen's podcast Lingthusiasm (I haven't listened yet, but you bet your ass I will.) Again, this conversation made me want to buy Gretchen's book, and I also appreciated the thoughtful show notes.

🎙️Margaritas and Donuts dropped its final episode, and I thought it was sweet. If you want to listen to a fiction show, but aren't into horror or dystopia or crime, check it out. It's a rom-com for your ears. I'm excited to see more shows like this. I want rom-coms!!! I want stuff like While You Were Sleeping in podcast form.

🎙️Another fiction podcast that's NOT in the horror / apocalyptic genre is Deadbeats, a narrative story about a single mom and her newly unemployed friends who decide to take child support enforcement into their own hands with a new business venture, Deadbeats Inc. It's different and a lot of fun, and it makes me really excited, again, about the future of fiction shows.

🎙️Well W-H-A-T a coincidence. I'm talking about The Show this week, the same week I'm talking to Kristopher Krash about his art form project...The SpeLcast. "This is not a podcast," he told me. "Rather it is a new art form using the podcasting medium. When something is called a podcast there is the expectation of an hour and a half long interview." It originated with a NYC variety show that features sketches, comedy routines, serial drama, short bio-stories, and sound collages tied together by a monthly theme. Sounds like The Paper Machete in Chicago! I want to go! But it all goes back to The Show, right? I love podcasts, and I don't think of them as hour and a half long interviews. Am I allowed to call SpeLcast a podcast?

🎙️The BrandoCast with Brendan Smith is an educational journey through the history of rock, where Brendan talks to his guests about music and its place in their lives (or they just hate the band he chose to discuss that day.) Brendan's got some great guests, so I advise you to look at the library and start with a guest or band that you like. I started with Jimmy Pardo. They talk about STYX.

🎙️I started listening to Whatever Happened to Pizza At McDonald's, and I am still trying to figure out what to think. The show is an investigative journalism program where Brian Thompson seeks to discover why McDonald's stopped serving pizza. It's satire, I get it (it initially claims to be on the Panoply network and lists a bunch of Panoply shows, which is a fun run down memory lane. Because it totally wasn't on the Panoply network is hilarious.) The episodes are very short, which means that often the ads take up 50% of the show. Which I know is the point. But it's still a lot of real ads to listen to. I'm even finding myself feeling bad for the McDonald's employees that Brian Thompson is torturing with his investigative calls. And I know, that's part of it, too. I don't want to make too many judgments about this show until I have listened to all 140+ episodes, so please give me some time. I'm on it. Stay tuned. (And please tell me what YOU think about this show.)🎙️This newsletter needs an editor.

🎙️I love you!