🍬 Jelly beans 👯♀️ twenty-two Ninas 🚗 drag race 💨 shower belly 🧼 vigilante justice 🤳
🍭 👂She has Smile smile 🌈 🤸♀️
Bonjour.
Today is Monday, May 5, 2025. Announcement:
⭐️If you’d like to advertise in Podcast the Newsletter but don’t have the money to do it and are willing to run a promo on your pod for Podcast the Newsletter, fill out this form. We’ll figure something out!⭐️
In case this newsletter is too long, a smart new true-crime here, a joyful interview here, here’s who inspired Rumble Strip’s Erica Heilman.
xoxo
lauren
🚨If u only have time for 1 thing🚨
I get excited anytime I see that Sam Mullins is hosting something, Go-Boy! is the latest, it’s about Roger Caron, a man who was cycled in and out and in and out of the darkest most abusive Canadian prisons for much of his life, surviving much longer than anyone would imagine, collecting some wild stories along the way. Early in episode one we learn that a friend pushed Roger’s memoir, Go-Boy! into his hands, and Sam was enamored with Roger’s story. Sam is a great host, and for this show, he’s kind of grabbing us by the collar, eager to tell us about this guy he met through the pages. (He’s pulling together archival tape, interviews with people who knew Roger, and readings from his memoir.) Some of the prisons Roger survived seemed like places actively trying to murder everyone inside. When Roger isn’t busy escaping death, he’s escaping prison, or scheming, or doing something illegal to get back inside. Roger is the definition of an unreliable narrator, and his stories sound like tall tales. They are such good tall tales. There is a sweet Christmas story at the end of the “jelly beans” episode that almost had me moved to tears—then it quickly pivoted to a really funny story about Roger really fucking with the prison guards. Go-Boy’s music is really, really good. It’s the perfect cartoony match to this animated story. (I could, however do without some of the sound effects, they’re over-done. I wonder if Sam Mullins knows that they plopped in the sounds of jail doors closing around his narration. I just don’t need it!) I sort of got real How to Destroy Everything Vibes, listening.
notes
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✨The Podcast Show London is coming up, and I’m speaking with Arielle Nissenblatt and Shreya Sharma. I am obsessed with The Podcast Show—it’s beautiful, and there’s a great week-long festival lineup of live podcasts from in venues across London. Learn more about it here. ADE SHERLING is the winner of the Platinum Pass giveaway so while sorry if you didn’t win you can get 10% off Platinum and Gold Passes if you use code TINK10.
✨Rephonic has found that podcasts that accept guests are more likely to attract sponsors and more HERE.
✨Arielle spotlighted 30 Minute Meltdown in EarBuds.
👋q & a & q & a & q & a👋
Jody Avirgan
Jody Avirgan is a podcast host and producer. His new show is Summer Album / Winter Album. He hosts the history show This Day and is one of the EP’s of What Now? With Trevor Noah. In the past he has made shows with Steph Curry, Higher Ground, 30 for 30, FiveThirtyEight, WNYC and many more. His favorite podcast of all time might be Dead Eyes.
Describe Summer Album / Winter Album in 10 words or less.
All albums are either summer or winter albums. We debate.
What was the “aha” moment when you were like, oh…this is a podcast?
I once had an argument with someone, insisting that a certain The War On Drugs album was a winter record. He was adamant that it was a summer record. Just so happens, that person was a member of The War On Drugs. It was then that I realized how interesting this (pretty arbitrary) divide was for talking about music. The other moment was when I pitched the concept to Ian at Talkhouse and he immediately pushed me to lean into the whole “debate club” vibe we try and do at the top. I really love writing those essays.
What defines a summer album? A winter album? Can you give us an idea of a good example of each?
Well the big meta-question is whether you begin with your personal experience, or something intrinsic to the album. So we explore that a lot. I love talking to Craig because he’s been on both sides of making an album, and loving albums. We talk a lot about how, for musicians, they sometimes record a record in the dead of winter, but then tour for it in the heat of summer. Which one defines their experience? Lots to discuss! In the end, I think you can almost make a valid argument that basically any record can be summer or winter -- though I recently got totally bamboozled by Malcolm Gladwell when arguing that Graceland was a summer record. Still stinging from that one.
I love how, when asked if Vampire Weekend’s “Modern Vampire,” Ezra Koenig said March 8th. Is that cheating? Are there right and wrong answers?
I don’t know if there are right or wrong answers, but that one was definitely a right one. I loved his answer -- and it’s been so cool to get so many artists chiming in to play along.
What kind of albums can we expect to see covered on Summer Album / Winter Album?
Well, Craig and I are… white guys of a certain age. So you might not be surprised at the Pavement, Modest Mouse, and Strokes records on the way. But we love all kinds of music -- I’m maybe most excited about the Lana Del Rey record we’re discussing soon. And I’m really curious to see what kinds of hip-hop albums we could dig into along these lines. (Hard to think of West Coast hip-hop as anything but summer, but you never know…)
How are you and Craig different and how are you the same? What do you each bring to the table?
Funny enough, I’m the “fan” and Craig is the musician, but I’ve noticed that he tends to lean a little towards his experience as a listener of the album; whereas I’m always interested in digging into the writing/production of the album itself.
OK so you’ve done a bunch of other things in audio, what’s your favorite so far?
It’s like asking me to choose my favorite kid (see below) but honestly I really love this current project. I recently proclaimed the Gladwell episode on Graceland as a top-five favorite things I”ve ever worked on, and I think it is. Also, as stressful as it was, I’m eternally proud of the work we did at 30 for 30.
Oh, can I be honest? The thing I may look forward to the most each week is trying to guess the title of that week’s New Yorker cover.
Does your daughter still love pizza?
She sure does. She’s seven now, and we haven’t had “the talk” with her about having once gone super-viral on a now-decimated social media platform.
What’s a podcast you love that everyone already knows about?
The Rest Is History
What’s a podcast you love that not enough people know about?
I honestly don’t know how many people know One Song but I absolutely love it. I’m pretty sure not that many people are listening to Selects and the work that Mitra and Ben are doing is really special.
Who in audio deserves a shout out?
Mitra Kaboli. Just a straight-up super-talented person.
How are you feeling about the state of the audio industry right now? Worried? Optimistic? Fucking stoked, because of Summer Album / Winter Album?
I feel very 2015. It’s time to keep your expectations in check, mostly do stuff that you’re excited about with people you’re excited to do it with, and hope that the rest works out. But, I think I’m feeling better than I was a year ago.
What didn’t I ask you that I should have?
You didn’t ask if I was pivoting to video! And, in fact, I am, kinda. I don’t know, in the last year or so, I’ve really embraced making more video content. I am convinced by all the data about how listeners are really gravitating towards youtube, but I also am finding myself creatively energized by flexing those muscles, which I haven’t in a while. Shoutout to Descript for making things pretty easy.
You definitely didn’t ask me about this, but I’m resolved to tell everyone about it. Next year is America 250, the 250th anniversary of this lil’ country of ours. On my history show, This Day, we are planning a major year-long initiative, called “50 Weeks That Shaped America.” We are currently seeking resources -- network partners, title sponsors, grants, philanthropists who understand the role of public history… It’s going to be a big moment, and we plan to be a part of it in a big way. If anyone has any ideas or wants to collaborate, please get in touch.
💎podcasts i texted to friends💎
👂The first episode of This Is Uncomfortable (the money podcast about humans and relationships) is about a woman named Hanna who decided to have children on her own without really thinking about how much that would cost, then being double blindsided when she ended up with twins. Hanna's best friend Bryer hated his job and the two came up with an arrangement—Hanna would pay Bryer to quit his job and be her nanny. I sent this episode to Anne on my team for many reasons but one of them was because I thought Anne would get a kick out of a woman who didn't seem to spend at least five minutes thinking about how much it would cost to raise a child. (This is the kind of thing Anne thinks about all the time and that is why Tink is a profitable company.) Anne's response was, "lol…’what if you quit your job and took care of my babies?’ is so similar to ‘what if you quit your job and took care of my baby Tink?’” which is exactly what I did to Anne. I had about two weeks notice that I would be a mother, and Anne quit their full time job to swoop in and take care of Tink while I figured out how to put together a bottle warmer. This story, though, is one of the best stories of love and friendship I've ever heard. The places this arrangement takes Hanna and Bryer is one for the books, a story I want to tell my daughter one day. Listen now.
How I discovered it: Longtime listener.
👂It's really hard to weed out good true crime shows from the bad ones, My Friend Daisy is a good one. The Cut's Jenn Swann is reporting on the 2021 murder of Daisy De La O, a 19-year old woman from Compton. Daisy's killer was caught thanks to social media sleuths on TikTok. But the show isn't about just that. Jenn is answering bigger questions about vigilante justice and why it has to happen in the first place. If you can't get attention from the cops, if you're not rich famous white blonde, what do you do? Especially if TikTok has been literally solving murders overlooked by the PD? And what must that feel like for the families? That is the story there that runs parallel to the crime, which is also described in great detail. No surprise: it’s enraging how many times Daisy’s murder might have been avoided, how much earlier this crime could have been solved. Jenn is obviously expert, she wrote the piece for The Cut, and she’s a sharp and personable host who is able to pull us through the story and get some good tape and conversations (that don't seem to be gathered by anyone before) on tape. She’s forcing you to think about what it's like to throw maybe the most devastating thing about you, the death of a loved one, to the social media wolves and then pray that the algorithm helps get your message to the right people. The chaos this causes. Getting real Believe Her vibes, here. Listen here.
How I discovered it: I had seen it around, but Jenn’s interview on Panic World convinced me to listen.
👂On most episodes of Diabolical Lies, all roads pretty much lead to the evils of capitalism. It is Diabolical Lies' main character. This month Katie Gatti Tassin and Caro Claire Burke produced a thorough, philosophical, and mind-blowing (even if you already think about it a LOT) treatise on capitalism. I'm not going to sugar coat things—it's almost three hours long and depressing and enraging. It took me twice as long as that to consume the whole thing. It was playing in one (just one) earbud while I was with my daughter at the playground and I had to stop, I was like Jesus Christ the vibes are just not right for this right now. (Going from “Weeee! Go down the slide, Stella!” to “we are upholding our economy by killing millions of people” is jarring.) There were so many points about why capitalism so blatantly isn't as advertised by the billionaires for whom it behooves, and why it's literally impossible to argue against it. (Oh you hate it and you're benefitting from it? Well shut up, you're benefitting from it. You hate it because you're not? You're jealous.) Is it working? Is it on its way to be over? This episode is intellectual whiplash, I think it will shift your worldview no matter what you think about capitalism, and a powerful argument for why it is anti-innovation, anti-problem solving, and responsible for the death of so many people who get stuck in its gears. This is grim but VERY funny. (“Fidel Castro is a fugly slut. Do not trust her.” There were also anecdotes about some CIA schemes so dumb I couldn’t believe it—we gave Castro poisonous cigars, tried to make his beard fall out using thallium salts, and we made a sex with an actor who looked like an Indonesian leader as revenge porn.) I do not advise you listen at the playground. Enjoy! Listen here.
How I discovered it: Reddit.
👂Doctor Horror is a horror movie slash mental health, two topics that make so much sense together but I don’t think they often get addressed that way. Anita Flores (one of the first people I interviewed for this newsletter!) interviews guests about “scares for whatever ails you,” matching scary movies with feelings. It's such an interesting study in what scares us and why, like really why. Like what's behind the why. And the themes like trauma, personal demons, and teenage angst that pop up in these movies like 28 Days Later, Scream 5, Carrie. These conversations are the exactly conversations I want to have with smart friends over a meal after I just saw a movie with them. However, huge caveat here, Anita and her guests WILL spoil things. So find something you already know all about or...here's the perfect thing to do…watch the movie and make yourself a meal and turn on an episode and pretend you are having dinner with Anita discussing what you just saw. I just listened to an episode on Presence that wasn't one of those all too-common movie podcast conversations that's like "I liked this part" and "here's an interesting fact about this part." The conversation was about how traditional American families create something that haunts us all. Listen here.
How I discovered it: Longtime Anita fan.
👂ANYONE reading this newsletter needs to listen to Audio Maverick, which is an absolute love letter slash history of audio that focuses on the life and work of Himan Brown, who directed over 30,000 radio shows across every major radio network, working alongside some of the biggest-name stars of the time in the golden age of audio. You get to hear archival stuff from audio dramas that I've heard of but never listened to, interviews with media scholars, and fascinating discussions about why Brown is someone to know. Someone who, to be honest, I hadn't at all. Listen here.
How I discovered it: This is a Tink client! However I had listened to it myself before I knew that and was going to write about it anyway.
👂I don't listen to tons of interview shows, especially not interview celebrity shows. Wild Card is an exception. Rachel Martin is such a great interviewer and there's a twist on what she does—she uses a deck of cards and lets the interviewee pick which way the interview goes. If they get stuck they can turn the tables and have Rachel answer the question. The thing is, they aren't questions about the guest's work, necessarily. They are very human questions so you're playing along the entire time. The Nikki Giovanni episode is one of my favorites. Weird Al Yankovic was on, and he's someone I guest-follow, meaning I will listen to anything he is on. Grace Helbig used to ask every single guest on Not Too Deep: if you could throw cold spaghetti on, who would it be. My answer in my head was always Weird Al. (I got to interview him once but did not throw spaghetti on him. The other question Grace asked everyone, BTW, was: tell me about a time you shit your pants.) Anyway I'm writing about it because it was an interview bursting with joy. Cheerful, grateful Al's is proof that optimism wins. He tells an amazing story about wanting twenty-two versions of his daughter living in his house at the same time, one for every year of her life, and he talks about performing at Cargenie Hall with such awe. He says, "you never get over that," speaking of fame. And I thought, well. Some people do. Not Al, he's grateful and happy for every second and I think he would be even if he wasn't super rich and famous. Listen here.
How I discovered it: Got a Wild Card press release awhile ago, I guest-follow Weird Al.
👂Last week, award-winning radio producer Larry Massett passed away. Larry made Hearing Voices and co-founded and hosted Soundprint, he was also the mentor of Erica Hielman, who made it Larry Massett Tribute Week on her show Rumble Strip, taking time to share some of her favorite Larry Massett pieces. I don't MAKE audio things, I only listen to them, but if I did I would want to know what’s inspired Erica, and Larry has. You can tell, listening to these Larry pieces, that their spirit rings through Erica's, much like Finn's bell if you will. I listened to every episode as it came out and relistened to all of them together on Sunday, that his how completely joyful they are to hear. In one episode Larry’s Romanian friend, a colorful poet, gives Larry a tour of Romania; in another he actually gets into an argument with Joe Frank that turns into a drag race. It was fun to listen to this stuff but also depressing because it is in such stark contrast to so many things being made now. So definitely listen, and thanks to Erica for sharing. Listen to the Joe Frank one here and find the rest on the Rumble Strip feed.
How I discovered it: I first discovered Rumble Strip via Bello Collective years ago.
👂I was a long time but not totally consistent listener to I Saw What You Did, hosted by Millie De Chirico and Danielle Henderson, and at some point it merged into Dear Movies, I Love You, Millie stuck around and the new co-host is Casey O'Brien. (I have no idea what happened, shout out in the comments if you do.) I loved I Saw What You Did for making unexpected movie pairings. I have sent the “Point Break” episode to so many people, it’s like a torn and worn and dog-eared page in a book. The vibes are different but also the same, it’s still a podcast oozing with adoration and infatuation with movies. I tapped on the episode “Mockumentaries & Waiting for Guffman” with Arden Myrin because…what a fun genre. Millie and Casey give such a thorough history and explanation of why mockumentaries work and why they don’t. I’m a fan of Arden, too, but I had no idea she was there to talk about Dirty Dancing. (I swear! THE DIRTY DANCING CONTENT FINDS ME.) I just wrote about how I have listened to so much Dirty Dancing content that I have heard it all, the last time I wrote about it I mentioned that the What Went Wrong episode actually taught me new things. It was as if Arden had listened to that very episode, this was kind of a review of it with an added gush sesh between Millie and Arden (Casey…hold their beer.) Lots of Millie’s notes are punctuated with Arden streaming “HOT. HOT. HOT.” in reference to Patrick Swayze. I don’t know if I’m giving this episode any justice but it was random and fun and as always, I was frantically typing movies that Millie and Casey were suggesting (frantically because I was listening at 1.8 speed) like Party Girl! How have I not seen Party Girl? Listen here.
How I discovered it: Not sure.
👂Danny Brown (of Captivate and zillions of other audio things (he's a huge champion of audio, one of the best!) hosts 5 Random Questions, where he uses a random question generator to ask his guest questions in live-time, so there is no possible way to prepare. He graciously asked me on and I said yes and was nervous. Usually people ask me about podcast marketing, which I know a lot about, or Disney, which I love talking about. But I wasn't sure if I was interesting enough to make an episode of this show good enough to hear. You can be the judge of that but I will tell you that when James Cridland shouted out this episode in Podnews (thanks, James!) the blurb was, "Lauren Passell tells you why her shower belly wasn’t a first date hit, how she got on a bar’s Wall of Fame for drinking a shot called The Punisher, why only intense games of Sharks and Minnows matter, and more" and I’ll just leave that there. DANNY, however, tells a CINEMATIC story about the loss of a friend, that he totally came up with on the fly. I've been thinking about it a lot. Listen here.
How I discovered it: Danny!
👂I love you!
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