👯♀️Imaginary Podcast Friends 🌲 Parklandia's Matt Kirouc🐾
👯♀️Imaginary Podcast Friends 🌲 Parklandia's Matt Kirouc🐾
💌Podcast The Newsletter is your weekly love letter to podcasts and the people who make them.💌
When I was little, I had two imaginary friends. Donald Frosty (looked like Donald Duck, obviously.) And Kathaleena Donald. (She looked like this.) I talked about them a lot (I was an only chid) and they would do all the bad things I wasn’t supposed to do, like walk across parking lots without shoes on. As I got older I got sick of my parents asking me about Donald and Kathaleena, so I told my parents that Donald and Kathaleena moved to Pittsburgh and that we had sadly lost touch and to please stop asking about them.
The most recent episode of Hidden Brain, Secret Friends, is about parasocial relationships, or one-way relationships. Imaginary friends are parasocial friends. But adults have them, too. And that is what this Hidden Brain episode is about. For example, Megan tells a story about how she used to talk to Cher in her head. That Cher offered her encouragement, that she had an ongoing fictional relationship with Cher in her imagination.
I have a LOT of parasocial relationships, and you do, too, if you listen to podcasts. I always think about how strange this is when I meet a podcaster I admire. I probably know their secrets and embarrassing stories, whom their roommate is, their likes and dislikes, that their dad is undergoing chemotherapy. But when they meet me, they only know that I know them. I wonder if that is an uncomfortable feeling. I never want to act too buddy-buddy with a podcaster I’ve only just met, because I have to keep in mind that while I am comfortable with them, that I like them, they might not like me.
I know what it’s like to be the Megan in the parasocial relationship, but not the Cher. But here is something I will say about all the podcasters I have met…when we break out of our parasocial relationship, when we shake hands or hug IRL, I have been met with a warmth and kindness I’m not sure I’ve had if I was on the other side. Surely not all podcasters are like that. The ones I have met obviously care about their fans and are willing to reach out to a stranger, even if they are not a stranger to their fans.
[By the way: I interview Matt Kirouc, co-host of Parklandia, below. When I was in Disney World last year I noticed on Twitter that he was in Disney World, too. I DMed him and asked if he wanted to get a drink. Our parasocial relationshp was broken and I feel like Matt has moved to my IRL friend category.]
[Another by the way: the most recent episode of The Dream, Green Eggs and Scams, talked about parasocial relationships with celebrities as they relate to the health industry, and how they get us to think about our personal health. The episode of The Dream was less meandering than the rest of the season has been so far, and it offered a few very interesting interviews. ]
xoxo lp
ps If you are pleased with Podcast The Newsletter, please tell a friend!
👋q & a & q & a & q & a👋
Parklandia’s Matt Kirouac
Matt Kirouac is a freelance travel writer and the co-host of Parklandia, a show about national parks and RV living, which he records with his husband, Brad. Follow him on Twitter here. Follow Parklandia on Twitter here. Follow Parklandia on Instagram here.
What's the difference between you and Brad...your podcasting styles? What do each of you bring to the show?
Brad tends to be very sweet and optimistic, and the kind of personality that everyone loves and connects to and appreciates. I tend to be more sarcastic and cynical, and even though we always keep things positive on the podcast, I'm not shy about voicing my discomfort or annoyances with different things we might talk about. We're a good yin and yang in that way.
Why did you start with Cuyahoga Valley National Park? I'm curious because that's such a lesser known place and it's where I'm from. I love it there. I run there with my dad every time I go back to Ohio.
One of the main themes of Parklandia is that we want to highlight the vast diversity of parks and sites within the National Park Service, far beyond the larger-than-life places like Yellowstone, Everglades, and Yosemite. We figured there was no better way to do that then by starting our show with an underrated and lesser-known park, which is no less beautiful and inspiring. It shows that national parks aren't exclusively these far-away places for hardcore hikers and backpackers. There's a park for everyone, all across the country!
What's your recording situation? Tell us about where you live.
We primarily record at the iHeartRadio studios in Atlanta, so it's a matter of syncing our travel schedule to make sure we can either drive the RV there and stay in an RV park outside of town, or we can leave the RV somewhere else in the country, wherever we may be, and fly to Atlanta. Typically, we spend at least a week there recording several episodes so that we can stockpile. We also have some recording equipment with us in our RV, but we tend to use that more as a last resort, like when we need to record an ad, or update some verbiage.
If people want to get into your show, where should they start?
Ideally, people can find an episode that's about a park they have some connection to. Maybe it's near where they live, or they have fond memories of family vacations there. The best parks are always the ones with these emotional connections and nostalgia. And hopefully our experience that we share on the podcast can add to those memories. You don't need to listen to all the episodes in chronological order, by any means, so hopefully after you get hooked, you can binge as you please. Maybe one day you're in the mood for an unfamiliar park like Petrified Forest, or another day you want to shed new light on an icon like Olympic.
If someone is like "gah, National Parks are boring," what would you tell them?
Classifying national parks as any one thing, like "boring," is like someone saying "I don't like sandwiches." There is so much endless variety that it's impossible to categorize them all as one singular thing. And even within individual parks, there's a wide array of activities, museums, animals, history, and culture. It sounds cliche, but there really is something for everyone, and most people don't realize the depth of opportunity within the National Park Service. If you like hiking, there's Rocky Mountain National Park (or any number of other options). If you like snorkeling, there's plenty to explore at Biscayne National Park. If you like jazz, there's New Orleans Jazz National Historical Park. If you like forts and American history, check out Fort Pulaski National Monument.
Your season two is different than season one. Can you talk about how and why that change came about? What's in store for season 3?
We really wanted to establish a foundation and tone with season one. For season two, we had more bandwidth to get creative and implement new ideas. The big ones were adding guests and interviews into some episodes, adding two bonus mini series ("Boondocking With Brad" and "Traveling Eats With Matt"), and delving further into ecology with new wildlife and ecology components for our episodes. It's been super fun to branch out and flex our creative muscles! For season three, we want to continue to feature an array of guests and cover an even wider cross-section of national park sites.
💎BTW💎
🎙️I had always incorrectly assumed that United States of Anxiety was about about mental health in general. But it more specifically addresses the kind of anxiety Americans are experiencing because of the political climate, “the unfinished business of our history and its grip on our future.” A few of the episodes I listened to (I couldn’t listen to just one) interview Trump supporters, and it was both a troubling and important exercise. I live in my NYC bubble, where Trump supporters seem more few and far between than they actually are, more outrageous and cruel, and less educated. It’s good that WNYC can bring these view points to more liberal-leaning listeners so we can hear why, exactly, so many people are moved to tears at Trump rallies and believe he can make the country great again. These people aren’t often treated with much seriousness, but on United States of Anxiety, they are. These are eye-opening view points we aren’t hearing enough of, that are important for us to hear so we can get a grasp on how prepared we should be for another Trump victory.
🎙️If you’re not caught up with Lemonada’s Last Day, a podcast about the things that are killing us, hosted by Stephanie Wittels Wachs, now’s the time to jump back in (or start.) Trauma is a great example of how excellent this show is. Trauma expert Dr. Gabor Maté makes unconventional ties between trauma and addiction—he believes that addiction is something that we all can have, it’s just a response to life’s pain. (“Your addiction is your attempt to solve a problem.”) It’s more about our brain circuits than genetics. And Stephanie gets personal. At the beginning of this episode, I thought to myself, “I don’t have any trauma.” By the end I was thinking I do have it. And addiction, like Stephanie does. (She’s addicted to work.) Listen to this episode and I think you might learn something profound about yourself.
🎙️Writing this issue of Podcast The Newsletter, I’ve determined my trauma is work-related, and also barfing-at-Swenson’s related. (See below.) Just when I was beginning to take my own trauma even remotely seriously, I listened to an episode of Story Corps that put things into perspective. When You Finally Told Me (has beautiful show artwork and) talks to Winfred Rembert and his wife Patsy. Winfred grew up in the south during the height of the civil rights movement. In the late-60s, he participated in a protest in Georgia, was arrested, and lynched by the police. He is one of few people to have ever survived a lynching. He waited a long time to tell Patsy the story, so he struggled for years with his pain alone. But he feels power in telling his story now. He wants people to know. He and Patsy love each other so much, this episode is both hard to listen to and bursting with love.
🎙️Radiolab drooped a little treat in their feed—The Other Latif, a story from Latif Nasser about his discovery that his name was not unique, as he thought, and that there was another Latif Nasser–detainee 244 at Guantanamo Bay. Radiolab Latif began a years-long investigation to find what The Other Latif did or did not do to land in Guantanamo. The first episode explores with The Other Latif’s lawyer the excruciating process that came close to releasing The Other Latif in the waning days of the Obama administration, but fell apart at the last minute. It’s an emotional rollercoaster. More episodes in this series to come.
🎙️Attention fans of 90 Day Fiancé (and fans of Miles Gray and Sofiya Alexandra’s podcast 420 Day Fiance)…I have a wild episode of The Secret Room for you: Gone. Jan moved her children all over the country and sold her business and home in order to be with Rick, a man from Saudi Arabia who was trying to get a K-1 Visa so he could be with Jan in the United States. It sounds like Jan is a wholesome, well-intending midwesterner who truly believes that she’s doing the best thing for herself and her family, every step of the way. After years of dating, Rick sending Jan money, and the two having a seemingly wonderful relationship, Jan finds out that Rick has completely ghosted her in Saudi Arabia and married someone else. But that’s not what the secret is. The secret is what Jan does once she discovers this. You have to listen yourself. Essentially, Jan tells a humungous lie that is so shocking, I cannot believe she is able to bring herself to do it. Props to her for taking matters into her own hands, I suppose? For taking control of her own narrative, I guess? I’m being cryptic because I really want you to listen. Listen. Extra interesting because she is a self-proclaimed liar, so perhaps an unreliable narrator. How much of her lie-based story should we believe? Like all episodes of The Secret Room, host Ben Hamm listens to Jan and takes her story seriously. The interview is conducted from a place of belief. It’s what I love about this show. The guests are always given a lot of respect, even when what they are saying seems shocking.
🎙️You Must Remember This continues the Make Me Over series, with an episode on Marie Dressler, the first female star to conquer Hollywood’s ageism. I’m loving this series so much, this episode from Farran Smith Nehme is so compelling. Marie Dressler seems to be able to have succeeded, against all odds, to become a Hollywood star as a “homely, overweight, and over 60-year-old” woman. I kept thinking about how while it’s cool that Marie was able to get work despite the fact that she was UTTERLY HIDEOUS……this wasn’t something that was happening all the time. Historically we’ve allowed, like, one non-traditional person to shine in Hollywood, but that doesn’t always mean we have entered a new pro-ugly society. I’m not sure how much I should be celebrating. (Like I am celebrating. But how much should I be?) I would have loved to hear Karina Longworth’s analysis. It made me realize that while I love her storytelling, I want to hear what’s going on in her brilliant BRAIN. I want more commentary! She is the expert here on the history of Hollywood's first century. What connections is she making? What does this say about Hollywood today? I know we are encouraged to be thinking of these on our own, but I wouldn’t mind hearing Karina not just tell the story (which again, I love) but explain it to me like I’m a stupid person, because I am.
🎙️ I was so excited to listen to Studio 360: American Icons, The Disney Parks but I must admit, it broke my heart a little bit. The piece is reporting on Disney fans as if they are nerdy aliens (we kind of are) and there is a long interview with Carl Hiaasen about how much he hates Disney World and refuses to go there, because he’s such a hardcore rebel or something. I’m very tired of these uninspired reviews about how annoying or evil or boring or torturous Disney World is. I’m much more interested in stories that see good in it. Knocking it feels very cliché. It’s the story about Disney World I didn’t really want to hear, but I was interested to hear exactly what kind of treatment Studio 360 would give it.
🎙️Doughboys came to Cleveland and the boys reviewed Swenson’s! I can’t personally go to Swenson’s anymore, because the last time I was there I ate too many jalepeño poppers and threw up in the seat pocket of my friend’s jeep. TBH the barfing was alcohol related, but that doesn’t take away from the trauma. The episode is a fun ride, with Carl Tart (god bless) in the passenger seat. And the best news is that Swenson’s is now in the Five Forks Club, which is the highest rating The Doughboys give. Cleveland is one of those places that could always use some extra love. People of Cleveland (I know you’re there,) this episode is a gift to you.
🎙️In his recent Podcast Gumbo newsletter, Paul Kondo drew attention to List Envy’s top 5 ways to eat potatoes. (What’s not to love about that? Also wussupppp Arielle Nissenblatt!!) But don’t miss the following episode, top 5 types of graphics most often misread. Mark gets into an interesting conversation with data visualization expert Alberto Cairo (a Tink client!,) who is here to remind us that while the misuse of graphics isn’t a partisan problem, the right is more guilty of bullshitting. Sounds dry, but is super fun, I swear.
🎙️I have to thank Amy Westervelt for pointing me toward Scene On Radio, which just launched its fourth season. This time the focus is American democracy. (Says host John Biewen, “there’s a good chance that we’ll complicate, maybe upend, our listeners’ understanding of American history.”) The first episode, Rich Man’s Revolt, sheds new light on the men to started the American Revolution. Were they fighting for democracy, or something else?
🎙️Nick Quah was on Culturally Relevant with David Chen talking about the state of the podcast industry. It’s a treasure trove of answered questions covering independent podcaster’s most burning questions about the biz. I like how Nick talked about open and closed systems, and what this means about independent shows trying to make money. Nick also talks about his family, his history with podcasting, and why, in the year 2020, two ancient forms of media (radio and newsletters) are back in business, baby! (Yes!)
🎙️Snap Judgment’s Raft of Passion tells the story of Mary Gidley, who escaped an abusive marriage by joining a study that required her to join ten others on a raft from Las Palmas, Spain to Cozumel, Mexico in the 70’s. It was an experiment conceived by Mexican anthropologist Santiago Genovés to investigate interpersonal relationships in conditions of limited space and social isolation. Though she was trying to escape something and transform into a new person, she found herself falling back into old habits. The way she describes being stuck in the middle of the ocean made me feel like I was stuck there with her. I felt like I was there with her as she saw the shore coming closer, her adventure ending. I feel like time stopped listening to this episode. And then I had to sit a bit in silence to put all the pieces together.
🎙️Decoder Ring is a rare treat (I can’t figure out the cadence of episode releases,) and the latest episode, The Stowe-Byron Controversy, did not disappoint. I think most people blame millennials and Gen Z for cancel culture, but Willa Paskin traces it back to the days of Lord Byron, arguably the first modern celebrity, who was nearly brought down when Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote an exposé about him and his romantic affairs in 1869. Scandal! The literary world! Strong women! All of my favorite things, delivered in a way that only Decoder Ring can deliver.
🎙️I recently listened to old episodes of Tell Them, I Am (love the name, listen to the episode 00 to hear where it came from), a beautiful project by Misha Euceph, and was struck by how beautifully Misha is able to create these delicate portraits from conversations with insightful Muslim people. She does great work structuring these conversations into short episodes, each perfect in size and content. The moments her subjects describe are small, but the feelings they evoke are universal.
🎙️This American Life’s Show of Delights is…delightful. And with the week we’ve all had, we could use it. Ira passes the mic to Bim Adewunmi, who does a lovely job presenting the stories of finding happiness in unexpected places in a comfy, TAL style, but adding her own gentle flair. She talks to podcaster Tracy Clayton about the depression Tracy went through after Another Round shut down (who knew?) and how Tracy was able to return to her perky self. (The solution was dancing by herself.) A sweet segment, The Squeals On The Bus by Robyn Semien, lets us join Robyn’s five-year-old son Cole as he rides the school bus for the first time. The joy here is contagious. Save this ep for when you’re having a rough day and need a pick up!
🎙️Just when I thought I couldn’t give less of a shit about the royal family, Meghan and Harry remove themselves from the family insanity, reeling me in for what feels like both juicy gossip but also universally relevant content. If you are like SUPER (I mean SUPER…this content digs DEEP) into this, binge When Meghan Met Harry, the show documenting the whole Meghan / Harry love affair from James Barr and Kristen Meinzer. (Unfortunately, the show’s last episode was dropped in 2018. I think we are in need of an update.)
🎙️ Sorry to sound like a broken record, but Dear Young Rocker is perfect and I love it more than I thought I could love a podcast.
🎙️Wolf 359 is too much fun. It’s in the style of old timey radio, but set on board the U.S.S. Hephaestus space station (7.8 light years from Earth, orbiting around red dwarf star Wolf 359) where we hear audio logs from communications officer Doug Eiffel. While searching for signs of alien life, Doug discovers totally mundane (and hilarious) surprises, and while I’m not too far along in the show, I feel like this story is about things much bigger than that. It feels like a sitcom, the cast is outrageous. The sound is beautiful. Bye I’m going to go listen to more.
🎙️I love you!