🚀 Fun to the Max 🚀
🍭 👂An ode to MaxFun 🌈 🤸♀️
Bonjour.
Today is Monday, March 17, 2025. I am going on my Disney Cruise on Friday and if you want me to send you a postcard fill out this form. This is not a normal issue of Podcast the Newsletter. If you don’t want to hear about how much I love MaxFun, skip, you’ll get a regular issue next week. (But don’t skip.)
xoxo
lauren
MaxFun was basically my entry point into podcasts. I love the content and all of the people who work on it. Today kicks off MaxFun Drive 2025, which means it’s a good opportunity to remember why MaxFun is so special. (And maybe, I dunno, support it.)
If you listen to MaxFun shows, you’ve heard a host say that MaxFun is “a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows supported by you,” but what does that mean? Basically: they make original shows and shows for other creators, supporting everything primarily through memberships. In 2023 they became 100% worker-owned which means the only things influencing business decisions are things that make the creators happy, not investors or anyone else. (I interviewed Jesse Thorn about this when it was announced.) You know how people say that you can tell if food is made with love? You can tell that MaxFun shows are made with love (and a really good sense of humor) and I think this is why.
You can tell a show is a MaxFun show just by hearing it. The creators share an ethos, and while their shows might have different personalities, they feel like they could be friends. And if you like one, you’ll probably like more of them. Just like how the shows could all be friends, the listeners probably could, too. It’s a great community. I think it’s important to support MaxFun, and anyone making amazing things in a good way.
If you think it’s hard to discover podcasts now, you would not believe how hard it was to discover them pre-Serial, when I was first hungry and hunting for them. You really had to work. The apps were not showing me the shows that were for me (I had found two non-MaxFun shows I liked, The Champs with Neal Brennan and Moshe Kasher, and Slumber Party with Alie and Georgia) and I somehow stumbled upon MaxFun. I would literally go to maximumfun.org and listen to whatever was on the homepage. I remember specifically listening to We Got This and Baby Geniuses and feeling my universe expand. Judge John Hodgman launched in 2010, and in 2020 I got to be a guest with my mom. (We argued over whether or not I would be willing to flush her ashes down the toilet in Disney World. You can listen to that episode, episode 489: Mr. Commode’s Wild Ride, here.)
🚨If u only have time for 1 thing🚨
Today Judge John Hodgman dropped an episode featuring my mom, my dad, and me. This time the case is more complicated, we argue over who in the family is more Gumby-like. We recorded last week. I don’t want to give anything away but I will tell you that none of us could have predicted where the episode would take us as a family. We were actually moved to tears from laughing and crying and had a long conversation on the phone after we recorded. We were blown away by the whole process (watching John and Jesse make the show in real time is really something) and how John was able to make his ruling funny, helpful, poetic. ❤️
👋q & a & q & a & q & a👋
Jesse “Baliff” Thorn is the host and producer of Bullseye and Jordan, Jesse, Go!, and the co-host and producer of Judge John Hodgman. He’s also the founder of the original Maximum Fun.
John Hodgman is the host of Judge John Hodgman, the co-creator with David Rees of DICKTOWN on FX/Hulu, the author of books like VACATIONLAND and MEDALLION STATUS, and doer of other things.
What is your favorite episode of Judge John Hodgman?
JT: I will, forever and always, be in love with the Bat Brothers. In short: two brothers bought a house together in rural Kansas for something like $50,000. The plan was to live there and save money. But then bats started getting into the bathroom. It would cost a few thousand dollars to fix the bat hole, and one brother thinks it isn’t worth it in a $50,000 house that they’re going to sell soon, anyway. The other one… well… doesn’t want bats in the bathroom. Just a magical situation.
JH: I happen to be very fond of a case between a mother and a daughter who had a dispute over what to do with the mom’s ashes when she passes away. The mom wanted to be flushed down the toilet at Disneyworld–or at least a resort near the Magic Kingdom–so that her ashes would help nurture the park’s many gardens. The daughter understandably didn’t want to flush her mom down the toilet in any theme park. I won’t tell you my final judgment, as I’d love for people to go listen to this one, and you already know the outcome Lauren, because you’re the daughter in question. I’m not just saying this to curry favor with your newsletter: I think about this case all the time. It’s not only fun and a little ridiculous, but both litigants were/are delightful, and like the best JJHO cases, it touches on real issues: how do we prepare for the (eventual) passing of a parent? How do we honor their end of life plans, and can the plumbing at Disneyworld handle human cremains?
What ingredients go into the perfect Judge John Hodgman episode?
JT: The dispute has to be real, it has to be between people who like each other, and the people have to be worth getting to know. Beyond that, anything goes.
John, when you are trying to come up with a ruling, what is going on in your head. In a very short time you are able to come up with something that is always both helpful and poetic.
JH: We have a few core principles that have emerged: People like what they like. People should be mindful of the work they leave for others. And if it’s not fun for everyone, it’s not fun at all. Behind every dumb dispute lurks what we’ve come to call “the crux:” the emotional underpinning of whether or not to let the dog lick the dinner plates or build a jellyfish aquarium in the den. Once that comes out, the verdict becomes plain pretty quickly. Are both parties being fair to each other? Is one making extra emotional or actual work for the other? There’s a reason so many of our couples are spouses, partners, and roommates: living with other people is challenging!
John, what is your favorite thing about Jesse? Jesse, what is your favorite thing about John?
JT: I’ve known John a long time now, and he’s one of the funniest and smartest people I know. But if pressed, I think I most enjoy his passion for other people. He gets so excited about the interesting people he knows, and I feel very lucky to be among them.
JH: Jesse is a profoundly skilled interviewer and just a deeply empathetic person. He’s taught me so much about how to gently get people to reveal themselves and really allow them to feel heard and not interrogated. His asides and interjections as Bailiff are always funny, but equally often help me see stuff in the conversation I’ve been missing. And he’s a perfect gift giver, because he’s very generous and pays attention to what people care about. He gave me a vintage Hartford Whalers ball cap–one of my obsessions. Every time I get a compliment on it (which is every time I wear it), I remember my friend Jesse.
John and Jesse, if you two were going to be guests on Judge John Hodgman what would your argument be about?
JT: We are only children. (Well, I’m a partial only child, I have much younger half-siblings.) Our argument would probably be about our inability to express what would otherwise be our argument, or possibly about the clear fact that if we have one argument it would definitely mean the end of our relationship forever.
JH: I like Tom Waits. Jesse doesn’t. Somehow our friendship survives.
Fill in the blank: you will like Judge John Hodgman if you like _____.
JT: Charming weirdos.
JH: Weird charmers. And Tom Waits
Who are your listeners? How would you describe them?
JT: They tend to fall into three groups: children who bring briefcases to school, parents of children who bring briefcases to school and former children who, when they were still in school, brought briefcases.
JH: As someone who brought a briefcase to school, I can concur that I often meet my people on the show: nerdy eccentrics and cheerful obsessives. But we also get litigants from all walks of life, all over the world, and my own world has been very happily expanded too by our guests and listeners from the trans and queer communities. I’m very proud folks of all backgrounds feel safe airing their grievances to us.
Any good fan interactions you can tell us about?
JT: In San Francisco the other day I cried with one listener about the Oakland A’s moving to Las Vegas and laughed with another about my elementary school yearbook (which he brought - apparently he was a couple years behind me). Our listeners are invariably the absolute sweetest. It’s an honor to work for them.
JH: I really appreciated Jesse crying over baseball, even though I don’t understand it. For me I was most recently blown away by all the people who showed up to our show in Vermont the day after the election. I didn’t know if I could do a comedy show, but I knew I didn’t want to be alone, and thank god or whatever, the people of Vermont were there to keep me (and each other) company. The show can get serious from time to time, but most importantly we want people to have a good time. Having a good time in the midst of all this pervasive sadness is, I think, an act of moral resistance.
How has the show changed since it began almost 30 years ago? How have you changed?
JT: I will cop to the fact that I imagined the show very differently. I mostly thought the hotter the conflict the funnier the show. John was pushier and sharper in the old days. Then we realized - people come to the show not for a sense of judgement but a sense of resolution. The premise of the show really is that it is possible to find peace and comfort in conflict.
JH: The only dispute I will no longer entertain is over how to load the dishwasher. Whoever is unloading the dishwasher gets to decide. The end. Otherwise, the court is open to the biggest, smallest, and even the most medium cases.
I have to ask you this because I’m obsessed with podcast marketing: what is the best way to grow a podcast?
The honest answer is: make a good podcast. I know that is glib, but it is all that’s left. That and going on other people’s podcasts and showing you are good at podcasting.
What’s a show that you love that everyone already knows about?
JT: I love Fresh Air. I listen to Fresh Air all the time. I love Terry Gross and I also love Dave Davies and Tonya Mosely. I like a thoughtful, insightful conversation.
JH: Jamie Loftus (16th Minute of Fame) and Karina Longworth (You Must Remember This) are my twin heroes. Each is distinctly talented, so I don’t mean to lump them together. But their long form, multi-episode podcast essays on movies, culture, and Cathy are usually the best books I read in any year. In another (a la) mode, Jesse introduced me to the Doughboys almost a decade ago: two guys and a guest discussing fast food and chain restaurants. I confess listening to that show (and going on it from time to time to eat terrible food) has become a dangerous addiction.
What’s a show you love that not enough people know about?
JT: I just went on a show called Walkin About with Allan McLeod. It’s basically a walking podcast. Allan goes on long walks with celebrity guests - mostly comedy people - and chats about the places they go and their relationship with walking. Allan’s slow-talking drawl is sort of in between a parody of Rick Steves-style travel content and actual, passionate Rick Steves-style travel content. And I love hearing the sounds of the places the guests are walking. It’s funny and relaxing, and I always learn something and leave inspired to use my body.
JH: ELECTION PROFIT MAKERS with David Rees and Jon Kimball. They’re two childhood friends from North Carolina who started out talking about political prediction markets, but mostly now talk about childhood favorite songs, the top 10 city skylines of the world, the geographic quirks of the Carolinian piedmont, Corma McCarthy, and birdsong. Full disclosure, I’m friends with both of these old friends, and I co-created an animated show called DICKTOWN on Hulu with David. But if you listen to them, they will be your friends too.
Why do you keep making Judge John Hodgman after all these years?
JT: Why does the bank keep asking for mortgage payments after all these years?
(In all sincerity: doing the show is one of the greatest pleasures of my life. I love my friend John and that I get to see him every week even though he lives 3000 miles from me, and I love talking to all the odd sweethearts who come on our show.)
JH: JUSTICE DOES NOT SLEEP. But honestly, as Jesse says, it’s great to hang with my friend. And talking to strangers is just always fun, interesting, and enlightening for me. Each person carries with them a whole world of experience, and I get to know two new ones every week.
My MaxFun Favorites (this was hard)
Judge John Hodgman
On Judge John Hodgman, family members and friends come on as guests with a dispute for John Hodgman to settle. (Baliff is Jesse Thorn and it is run like a real court case, gavel sounds and all.) The cases, if you can’t tell from the ones I mentioned above, are usually ridiculous. But there is often usually real heart and emotion behind them. I got emotional talking about flushing my mom’s ashes down the toilet! I remember one case in which a guy didn’t want to spend the night at this wife’s house for Christmas, that dug up some real childhood trauma. They’re all sort of dorky, too. And that gets back to what I was talking about before: MaxFun listeners are a special kind of wonderful. Episodes are funny and human.
Favorite episodes: A Betrayal of Crust, You Can’t Acquit With Us, Neverlandmark Case, Lodging: A Complaint. And look at those episode titles! They are submitted by MaxFun listeners and that really tells you something about how funny and brilliant they are.
Baby Geniuses
For years the hilarious Emily Heller and Lisa Hanawalt made weekly episodes of Baby Geniuses, a show that started out as more of a comedy show with improv but evolved into a funny show about weird things and Emily and Lisa’s friendship, their struggles with mental health, and their frustrations with being artists. (There was an unforgettable episode about Emily talking about her recent ADHD diagnosis.) They were honest about life sucking when it sucked and also always down to embrace goofiness and things to be joyful about. It will forever be remembered for its segments and the music that introduced these segments (which I think Emily’s brother made.) Segments like “Chunch Chat” (an update on Martha Stewart’s horse) “Wiki of the Week" (they go through a weird Wikipedia page together) etc.
Bullseye
I’m not big into interview shows but I almost never miss Bullseye with Jesse Thorn because he’s a great interviewer but also his guests are always people I want to hear from, people I don’t often get to hear from. (Mostly in the music and comedy scene.) I sense Jesse isn’t taking pitches (I have never pitched him) because the guests are sometimes obscure, or at the very least, not being interviewed on every other podcast. And even if they are on other podcasts, Jesse’s conversations with them are different. It never feels like guests are are on a press tour—it feels like Jesse is interviewing them because he really respects them and knows all about their work. So the conversations are smart and wonderful. This show also has the highest overlap with my husband and dad, so I find myself texting them both about certain episodes. In fact I often have to wait to listen because Justin and I listen together. (Which mean I’m listening at 1.0x speed because Justin doesn’t speed sound up like I do. That’s true love, baby.)
Valley Heat
Valley Heat is a fictional podcast hosted by fictional character “Doug Duguay” about everything that happens in his non-fiction neighborhood, the Rancho Equestrian District in Burbank, California. Doug is a sweet guy who always tries to do the right thing but everything and everyone seems to be conspiring against him, including his family. It all begins when he suspects that his pool cleaning guy is dealing drugs from his garbage can, but that might just be the most normal plot line in the whole thing. I have lost my shit laughing all by myself sitting on trains, walking down the street, listening to Valley Heat. The creator of the show, Christian Duguay, makes these meta ads for Doug Duguay’s podcast—they’re long, musical, and funny skits. I kind of start shaking with excitement when I see a new episode has arrived in my feed.
Dr Gameshow
On Dr. Gameshow, Jo Firestone and Manolo Moreno play user-submitted games with their listeners. The weirder and worse the game the better. (You know, games like “Good At Poems, Bad At Apologies,” “Oops! All (Blank)s” and “Hip 90's Guy.”) This show is the epitome of absurd. Jo and Manolo have a dynamic that’s one-of-a-kind. They’re totally different—Jo has a dry sense of humor that’s mixed with this hilariously anxious energy, which contrasts perfectly to Manolo’s laid-back vibe. You could listen just for the two of them but the games are silly and adorable. I send this one to parents all the time. Kids often create and play the games. It’s fun for the whole family! (They bleep out swears.)
I also a few friends and the MaxFun Reddit (one of the best places on the internet) to tell me their favorite shows. The responses are so witty well-written and thoughtful, I think they are proof that the MaxFun community fucking rules.
"I started listening to the McElroy family's flagship show My Brother My Brother and Me at least 10 years ago—which is a terrifying collection of words to put together in a sentence—and have been a dedicated listener ever since. From having met fans in the wild (the NYC subway system meetups, anyone?) to syncing up listening on flights with friends, MBMBaM remains one of my favorite comfort shows. Plus: I've adopted so many McElroy-isms into my daily language by this point that I truly don't know who I would be without having listened to their podcasts. If the brothers ever stop making the show, at least I know I'll have enough episodes to get me through the next 10+ years with weekly re-listens!" —Anne Baird
I'm a fan of Depresh Mode with John Moe. It's kinda like "Celebrities: They're just like us -- depressed!" I really appreciate how I feel like I've gotten to know some creators who I really admire -- like comedians Hari Kondabolu and Naomi Ekperigin (I think Naomi was on John's old show, The Hilarious World of Depression, but whatevs), and musician Devendra Banhart. Host John Moe asks questions that make the conversations feel really authentic and not performative. And he just seems to really care. —Andrea Muraskin
I have been listening to Jordan Jesse Go! since episode 1. It kept me sane while working in a lonely lab hood as a new postdoc. I had a trusty iPod nano that I had to manually load up with content to last every day. I introduced the show to one friend who also continues to listen to it today. But beyond that, I’ve never met anyone else that understands the nuances behind Del Monte Fashion Peas or all the production work that goes into a Hang it Up Keep it Up. So I’ll just keep my little parasocial relationship to myself as a proud MaxFun member. —GergSathoms
For me it's Jesse Jordan Go!. I just love listening to those silly goofy dudes with their just-right balance of sincerity and stupidity.
Years ago I was driving to the Target in the Serramonte Mall for my hyperspecific local reference as the Target Greatland in Colma was closed for rebranding. Jesse’s voice came on and and I was thrilled as this was before I at least knew about podcasts so I had to catch it live. I stayed parked and he was interviewing Benedict Cumberbatch, which was great. I was watching Sherlock and he seemed charming. And then Jesse announced the name of the show was changing from The Sound of Young America to Bullseye since you can't be young forever. As someone who is about the same age as Jesse, I don't know if there has been a more light hearted way of feeling my own morality than listening to a terrific conversation with my favourite host and a guy who can't say penguin, but it has stuck with me for what has to have been over a decade at this point, and it continues to be one of my favourite shows to this day. —treelemon
I listen to so many podcasts already that I have joked the only way I'll add a new one to my feed is if it's called The Sue Show and is specifically targeted to me. Then Max Fun called my bluff and added Eurovangelists, a podcast about the Eurovision Song Contest, an obsession of mine for years. The hosts are so knowledgeable and funny, able to thread the needle of poking fun at the contest's excesses and occasional foolishness while applauding the brilliance of its finest moments. I enjoy Eurovision even more now thanks to Dimitry, Oscar and Jeremy! —trew125
THE JACKIE AND LAURIE SHOW. Episode #214 Feb 3, 2020. Jackie seemed to be seriously considering a cruiseship gig and Laurie casually mentioned a cruise ship in quarantine somewhere. They briefly wondered aloud how a global pandemic might theoretically affect their bookings and crowd work. That ep and subsequent episodes of this comedy insider podcast, taken together, did double duty as an essential white-knuckle record of America's pandemic years. If not always keeping calm, J & L did carry on. In 100 years some A.I. Ken Burns will be reading out transcripts of their conversations with a plaintive fiddle tune accompaniment. Those Covid era eps should be preserved in the Library of Congress if it has not yet been converted to a Spirit Halloween store.
I selfishly hope Jackie and Laurie stick with it through our present season of oligarchaotic algoarhythmia or whatever.
I also hope the unnamed assholes In the chat START BOOKING THEM! —SnooMaps3172
I discovered Judge John Hodgman first (all the way back in 2012...woah) so when I started listening to JJGO it was a shock to hear Jesse say swears. I was hooked immediately. But, honestly, I was also lost immediately because JJGO is largely made up of in-jokes held together by spit and rude words. But I stuck with it because even when I didn't get the references, the vibes (and audio quality) were good and it kept me smiling.
Nowadays I understand at least 60% of the references in a typical episode, and it makes me feel important and better than other people—the real reason anyone listens to podcasts. One of my favorite times of day to listen is walking home from the subway after a long-ass, dumb-ass day at work. It's a short walk, but still enough time for Jordan, Jesse, and guest to make me genuinely laugh out loud, or at least maybe smile. What more could one want in a podcast? —i_am_a_human_person
Thanks for the Valley Heat recommendation. Just listened to ep 1 while sick in bed & it cheered me up no end!
A good call back/repeat guest is a great time! Can't wait to listen to this episode of JJH!