🙅♀️ Don't bother mama when she's listenin' to her stories 🎧 The Secret Room's Ben Hamm 🤫
Bonjour!
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The Secret Room’s Ben Hamm
Ben Hamm is the host of The Secret Room. Follow him on Twitter here.
Sometimes I listen to these crazy stories and I find myself, unfortunately, getting judgmental. But you never are! You have such empathy for everyone. 1) Are you empathetic in real life? Has this helped you in being the host of this show? 2) How do you maintain empathy, when often your guests are telling you stories of shocking things they've done?
A multi-part question, I love it! You might not expect this answer, but I don’t think I’m as empathetic in person as I am on the podcast. I know that sounds awful. I think my on-air empathy is driven by my sheer amazement that people would honor the Secret Room as the sanctuary in which to reveal their most private stories. I’m so humbled every time. How could I return that trust with anything but the utmost empathy and respect?
In episode 88 “Objectum Sexual” Joey confessed his feelings of love and sexual attraction for inanimate objects. That interview garnered more “How did you keep a straight face?” questions from people than any other episode. But it wasn’t a challenge for me at all. Joey was revealing the conflicts his true nature causes him. How could I laugh at that? It’s just so real.
How do your guests feel after a show is done? Do they ever say, after recording, "I'm not comfortable releasing that to the world?”
It’s happened only four times. But each one has been a major bummer. Mostly because I’ve invested time and money. I also feel tremendous loss at not being able to share an amazing story I’ve become very involved with. And even though I could legally air the interview with signed releases in place, I still defer to the guest’s reluctance. Sigh. I tell myself it goes with the territory and to be glad it hasn’t happened more often.
And if you really want to know how guests feel after the show, it’s documented! After the interview the guests and I always share a moment of reflection on what it was like for them. These “post interviews” are available in our Patreon exclusive version of the podcast called The Secret Room | Unlocked. Each episode expands on the current episode of The Secret Room. In addition to post interviews you also hear unheard revelations about the story, deleted scenes and bloopers. It’s great fun for hard core listeners. ☺ (Patreon.com/SecretRoom).
If people haven't listened to The Secret Room yet, 1) shame on them and 2) where should they start?
Lauren that is such a hard question to ask me! I’m my own worst critic and I really just want to rip them all down. But based on audience response people could start with Episode 64 My Daughter’s Famous Father. It’s about a woman in the Netherlands who, on her deathbed, reveals that her daughter is the product of a summer fling with an American movie star. It’s terribly moving and she passed before it aired. I get sad whenever I think about it.
After that jump to 81 “Despicable Houseguest” and then 86 “My Catfish Wrecked Me” and then binge from there to the present. If you’re still listening I give permission to go back and catch up on older episodes. You’ll be more forgiving knowing the show improves with age!
How is an episode born and developed?
Oooo, I love this. The nuts and bolts are my favorite part.
Almost all stories are submitted by listeners. My producer Susie Lark and I comb through the submissions looking for impactful stories, ones that document the human experience. We are often criticized for not being sensational enough, but the show is not trying to emulate Jerry Springer. We’re going for heartfelt and meaningful.
To qualify, stories must also have a clear story arc. Elements would include a conflict and a path to resolution that ends with a climax delivering a lesson. Boom, basic stuff.
Some submissions are a sentence, others are 20-minute voice recordings. We narrow them down to the best and conduct pre-interviews with potential guests. In that conversation we hammer out how the story can best be told.
For those stories we advance to interview I mail a mic kit that includes a digital Tascam recorder and a Sure SM58 mic. When we sit down to do the interview we speak over the phone, but we each record our side of the interview locally on our own gear. The guest mails the kit back and I mix their track with mine and voilà, it sounds like we’re in the same room. This old radio trick used to be called a tape-sync. The kids today call it a double-headed interview or something like that. It’s used a lot in non-breaking news scenarios, but it does require a budget.
After that there is a painstaking editing process. Hopefully you can’t tell, but every interview is highly edited to present the story in the richest and most concise way. Normally an interview that’s an hour and fifteen minutes will consolidate down to about 45 minutes. Editing is the longest and most grueling part of the production process. After that’s complete, it’s all downhill creating the intro and closing narration, bridges into advertising and producing the social media. The fun stuff!
What has The Secret Room taught you about yourself? About the world?
Earlier you asked me if I was empathetic in real life. The podcast has certainly taught me the importance of empathy. So I strive to be as empathetic a person in life as I am in the podcast.
And what has it taught me about the world? It has taught me that everyone has a story, good or bad. It’s taught me that people are deserving of kindness by default. And that we should make no assumptions about the ease or difficulty of the path that has led people to the point where we meet them.
What has influenced your storytelling style? Any other storytellers/writers/creators?
As an upcoming radio producer, the godfather of radio storytelling, Joe Frank, really shook my world. His program “Joe Frank: Work In Progress” remains untouchable. No one has surpassed his capacity for producing mesmerizing radio stories that grip you and will not let go. It was broadcast from 1986 through 2002.
I’ve also been entranced by radio storytelling master Jonathan Goldstein. Specifically, his now defunct CBC podcast “WireTap” was a letdown every time it was over…because it was over! He’s currently producing great new content on Heavyweight. Listen if you haven’t.
If anyone wants to learn secrets of great podcast storytelling, grab a copy of Out on the Wire: The Storytelling Secrets of the New Masters of Radio by Jessica Abel. It’s a graphic novel, but don’t let that fool you. It’s tremendous reporting on how the best podcast storytellers craft their shows and chock-full of "That's how they do it!" moments.
🚨If you only have time for ONE of my weekly recommendations…🚨
…make it Wonder Media’s Beyond Belief. Why do society’s “weirdos” believe what they believe? These gutsy conversations with host Jerico Mandybur are SUPER interesting and carving a unique path in podcasts—this is not stuff you will hear over and over again, everywhere else. The first episode, Satan The Feminist, talks to a feminist satanist, and listening, convinces me that I should be both. All of these episodes, actually think, “wow I love that person believes that. I can envision a world where I might believe that, too.” AND ISN’T THAT FUCKING BEAUTIFUL? The episode on the consciousness of dolphins and their link to spirituality was sort of a mind-fuck in the best way. Frances Fox says that dolphins are functioning at a higher consciousness that we aren’t able to understand, even though they are reaching out to humans telepathically, and with a message. She believes she can teach anyone to communicate with dolphins, and although she isn’t religious, finds proof of this concept in the Bible. I LOVE THIS.
💎BTW💎
🎙️I was so wowed by this Outside/In episode about moss and mold that I listened twice. It isn’t just science-y (it is) but shit gets spiritual when Sam talks to Sister Noella, aka The Cheese Nun. We don’t want to look at death, but we DO want to eat cheese, a delicious, denigration product. Is eating cheese an unconscious way to prepare for our death? Can you see GOD in mold? Call me an impressionable schmuck, but I couldn’t before and I can, now.
🎙️Big Think’s Jason Gots is doing something really different with Clever Creatures, “an experimental variety show.” On each episode, Jason takes one random word and from it creates a story, a song, and has a conversation with someone about it. I LOVE this structure (it kind of reminds me of Neal Brennan’s Three Mics) and I hope it inspires other people to do similar creative projects, which I think is Jason’s intention. The first episode, DESERT, includes a fun little fiction piece, and a cool story with/a song from Jason’s twelve-year-old son. After listening, I almost picked up the phone and called my dad to say, “DESERT. GO.” To see what he’d say. What kind of conversation could we have using this word as a launching pad? At the end of each episode, Jason leads listeners in a guided meditation. I mean, what is going on here? I don’t know, but I like it.
🎙️On Cheryl Strayed’s Sugar Calling, Joy Harjo talks about the life-saving power of poetry, and reads I Give You Back, her poem that helps her (and us) get rid of fear. Joy is a member of the Mvskoke Nation, and talks about how I Give You Back is part of the tribal tradition of poems being useful. (Cheryl calls it “a working poem.”) I just finished The Last Dance and was moved to hear that at the end of Michael Jordan’s career, head coach Phil Jackson asked the players to write down on a piece of paper what being on The Bulls meant to them. Michael wrote a poem. (I would have loved to hear it.) The players all put their papers in a big can and Phil Jackson burned them as they players watched, the intent being to release the words into the universe. Steve Kerr said it was the most powerful moment of his life. This all makes me think about how powerful writing and poetry and the rituals surrounding them can be, including listening to a poet read her poem to Cheryl Strayed, over the phone, on a podcast. I Give You Back, a working poem, is useful for us all right now as we grapple with reidentifying what our lives mean after the world has been pulled out from underneath us. Listen to this beautiful conversation!
🎙️Ugh. UGH!!! Rough Translation’s Hotel Corona was so beautiful I wish I could force everyone to listen to it. (Can I do that, is there a way? Can someone check?) The Jerusalem government quarantined 200 recovering COVID patients together in the Dan Hotel (Hotel Corona)…Israelis, Palestinians, religious, secular, groups that don't normally mix. Sounds like a reality TV show, right? Or a science experiment! You’d think they would fight or self-quarantine even more, but that’s not what happened. Everyone was joking (literally doing bilingual stand-up comedy,) Zumba-ing, and eating together. On Passover, the hotel put up a separator so that the Orthodox group could have privacy and the secular group could post their ritual to social media. Allow me to quote Buzzfeed: YOU WON’T BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED NEXT. Maybe in desperate times, our human nature drives us to tear down walls and connect when we can, after all, even with people are are not supposed to mingle with.
🎙️Tink client Shawna Potter (front-person for the feminist punk rock band War On Women and author of Making Spaces Safer) was on The Daily Zeitgeist…you all know this was a DREAM for me. Now would be a good time for me to remind you that The DZ is my favorite show, my husband and I listen everyday. (It has been interesting, during quarantine, to listen with him, because I get to hear him lol throughout.) Shawna was a killer guest, she was a great fit for the show and made so many interesting, funny, relevant points.
🎙️If you love Josh Gondleman’s Make My Day, you will also love Dylan Maron’s Small Triumph Big Speech. I get the same surge of joy every time I listen to it. I’ve talked about it before…For charity, Dylan facilitates over-the-top speeches for his listeners, who have experienced tiny wins, from his friends. Dylan’s interviews with his listeners are sweet, and the speeches his friends write feel, well, triumphant. My face was hurting from smiling after listening to Hrishikesh Hirway congratulate a woman for keeping one of her plants alive. So warning re: face pain. But enjoy.
🎙️Two of my clients, Cam and KarenLee Poter (listen to their show, Sex Talk With My Mom) were on Lizard People and I almost died from lolololing. They have hysterical chemistry and give a truly solid argument that not only is astrology 100% real, but that the government doesn’t want us to believe in it. I think at some point, Katelyn says “this has been a rollicking good time,” and I couldn’t agree more. (Also when I was talking to KarenLee over the phone, she immediately guessed my sign, which was eerie.)
🎙️Oh if you love conspiracy theories, this episode of Throughline is about how conspiracy theories are fundamental to American life and have actually been a huge part in building the country. There are three specific lessons in history, all of them were totally surprises and had me thinking, how did I not know this? Sam Adams = Alex Jones? Lyndon B Johnson/necrophilia/Kennedy’s bullet wound? The government purposely poisoning alcohol to murder bootleggers? I hope this has enticed you to listen to the entire episode!
🎙️Cam and KarenLee were also on Mouthpeace with Michael and Pele Bennett, where we learn an entirely different side of them. They ARE comedians, but they also have a tragic story—Cam’s dad/KarenLee’s husband was murdered years ago. And while Sex Talk With My Mom is funny, it’s also about a mother and son healing and deeply connecting over something that’s so personal that most people don’t GO THERE.
🎙️We’ve all been staying at home and depending on where we live, are in different stages of reentering into society. What challenges does this present? A new show from Pod People, Can We All Come Out Now?, is a cool twist on COVID content, talking to people who have been separated from society in some profound way and then had to find their way back. On episode one, we meet Alison, who attended a meditation retreat that was supposed to last for one year, but she ended up staying for seven. And then she came down from the mountain. What can we learn from her about her years in retreat? I can’t wait to hear more stories!
🎙️In the wake of the Ahmaud Arbery lynching (if you don’t think it was a lynching, hear Elie Mystal talk about that on Come Through with Rebecca Carroll), Kai Wright talked to Friday Black author Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah on The United States of Anxiety. Nana’s debut collection of dystopian short stories have an anti-black violence theme. I love hearing Nana talk about them and read from them (chills—this book was published in 2018 but we need it more now than ever) but I also love the way that Kai is able to spotlight a short story collection on a podcast. IMHO short stories don’t get enough podcast love!
🎙️On Tape Club, Rachael King (in LA) and Pete Naughton (in London) have a great conversation about Apple Podcasts and pod apps in general, and they include amazing audio of Steven Jobs circa 2005 announcing podcasts to the world, describing them as “Wayne’s World for Radio.” This discussion made me think about Apple Podcasts in a new way, and I mean, I already was thinking about Apple Podcasts probably more than any human being should. I love Tape Club…Rachael and Pete love podcasts but are also honest about what they do not like. (This was a struggle for me, when I had my own podcast about podcasts!) Hot take alert: '‘Video podcasts are not a thing! There’s no such thing as a video podcast!” PREACH, RACHAEL.
🎙️There are TERRIBLE things going on in the world right now, but I wake up every day focusing on gratitude over anxiety, and also my husband and I have started saying grace before meals. (Looking for good grace recs. Any ideas?) What I’m trying to say is that I’m FINE but…am I allowed to be sad about just one thing? I miss Disney World. I was supposed to go on the Disney Cruise with my mom for Mother’s Day, I have no idea when I’ll go back. I dream about it. My stomach hurts and tears well in my eyes when I think about the last trip I took there with my mom. So I have been BINGEING Podcast The Ride’s Disney World episodes. It’s my version of yoga or meditation. I literally listened to Mike, Jason, and Scott talk about the first 1/10th of the Haunted Mansion attraction for two hours, and when the episode was over, was like “can I listen to more?” (There was some crazy fact-dropping about Paul Frees, voice of “your ghost host.”) I think this paragraph says more about me than it does Podcast The Ride, but I do love this show, and if you miss Disney World like me (I’m talking to you, Cookie Passell) check out some of these EPS!!!
🎙️Pessimists Archive is a history of why we resist certain things. In a way, it reminds me of a show I love, The Boring Talks, because the subject of each episode always seems like this totally innocuous thing, but then you listen and get hit with how huge and meaningful it is. I looked at the episode list and wanted to listen to everything at once, but started with mirrors. Did you know we used to be afraid of them? That they used to be a symbol of our evil vanity? This episode takes us through the history of our relationship with mirrors, and when we associate vanity with women, we’re completely misunderstanding human nature.
🎙️Tight Lipped is a storytelling podcast about female chronic pain, and a recent episode, Did I Dream? Is all about medical gaslighting. It’s an aggravating story about something that is so unbelievable that I don’t think men can understand it, but so common that women understand it all too well: people not believing a woman’s pain. To dive into this topic even deeper, listen to the fantastic show NATAL, a podcast docuseries about having a baby while Black in the US. It should come as a surprise to absolutely no one that while we rarely listen to women when they talk about their pain, we pretty much actively fight against listening when POC do it.
🎙️I don’t have the words to describe how funny Oh Hello: The P’dcast (technically a podcast on the life and death of Princess Diana from the stars of “Oh Hello,” on Broadway) is. Each episode is absurdly wonderful and every second of it feels like the absolute best thing I listen to all day. It’s a constant 11 on the 1-10 chart of entertaining, if that makes sense. I feel like they should have called it Never Not Funny but I hear that podcast name has been taken.
🎙️When I saw that Avery Trufelman dropped an Articles of Interest episode on perfume, I was so wishful that I would hear Rachel Syme’s voice. (Rachel is a great writer and tweeter who knows a lot about perfume, and used to have a perfume newsletter.) My wish came true! Rachel tries to convince a skeptical Avery that perfume is awesome. I’m not 100% convinced she did, but the story is very nice. I have been daydreaming about joining the two of them in the Sephora in Union Square, spritzing perfume on our wrists and laughing, specifically about something charming that I just said. (Partially because I would have loved to join them, partially because I miss Sephora second to missing Disney World.)
🎙️The Bad Gays episode on Morrissey was truly eye-opening for me. Hosts Huw and Ben are fearful to call Morrissey a racist or bad gay, technically (they do not do that, let’s be clear) because Morrissey is known to be extremely litigious. While doing this delicate dance of telling his story without blatantly slandering him, they are able to paint a pretty clear portrait of a controversial, complex artist. Even if we still enjoy Morrissey’s music, we probably grew out of our “fuck you I won’t do what you tell me” Morrissey phase at some point. Unless we are Morrissey, who seems to have dug his heels into this even more.
🎙️The sound and feeling of water makes me feel like I am where I belong. I was a swimmer for 12 years and if I have time in a pool or body of water, all I want to do is flip around for hours alone. Sometimes when I’m stressed I have this urge to draw myself a bath? Even though I hate baths? The idea just feels right. Listening to this episode of Short Cuts The Sea, The Sea, audio pieces of crashing waves and diving under water, is kind of like a guided medication that takes you to the sea. I downloaded it and am saving it forever.
🎙️I love King James Virgin (Justin and I using it to slowly go through The Bible) because the hosts Adam, Alan, and Nick truly appreciate how FUNNY and weird The Bible is. It’s the same reason I love Natalie Haynes Stands Up For The Classics. Natalie does a stand-up routine based on the characters of the ancient world. The Helen of Troy episode shows us a more thoughtful look at the Helen we learned about in high school. And this version of Helen is much more human, and much more funny. Would totally want to grab a drink with her. I wish this podcast had been around when I was in school. It’s a really fun way to learn about the classics.
🎙️I’m not usually squeamish about what I listen to. I can listen to people talk about animal and people abuse, terrifying and gross things, and maintain my composure. But listening to Dear Governor is rough. We meet Jarvis Jay Masters, a condemned prisoner at San Quentin who has maintained his innocence for over 30 years. After hearing his story we are asked, “Is the death penalty a necessary evil to keep our streets safe, to exact righteous punishment and to deliver a semblance of justice to victims – or is it too fraught with ambiguity, contradictions and biases to ensure that we are all protected equally under the law?” I wonder who is listening to this show, if it’s preaching to the choir or changing people’s minds. I feel a little helpless listening, and I hope future episodes can somehow make me feel more powerful about it. Maybe listening and truly understanding the process of putting someone to death will make me feel empowered?
🤸♀️Non-podcast recommendations: The Insecure Season 4 soundtrack is liiiiiit🔥🔥🔥 and We’re Here might be powerful enough to solve world peace?
🎙️I love you!